Questions by Thomas, while studying Qur'a |
Post Reply | Page <1234> |
Author | |||||||||
thomasd
Groupie Joined: 13 July 2008 Status: Offline Points: 43 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||
ok. so. I have a question for all of you.
Genesis 10 and 11 have the genealogies of Nimrod and Abraham, and according to this, they lived approximately 7 generations apart. Much later Jewish tradition developed tales of conflicts between Nimrod and Abraham, but these are more in the vein of what would be considered folktales juxtaposing two well known historical characters, rather than authentic historical record. Nonetheless, the Qur'an mirrors the later narrative, rather than the former, and I'm curious as to what the accepted explanation for this is, or how many of you have come across this particular information before. Naturally, it seems implausible to me that two men, living 7 generations apart would come in direct conflict with each other. |
|||||||||
seekshidayath
Senior Member Female Islam Joined: 26 March 2006 Location: India Status: Offline Points: 3357 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||
Hello Thomas,
Glad to see you active.
Yes, Qur'an mirrors only the later narrative you mentioned. We don't have any genealogy of Namrud and Abraham {Peace be on him}.
I guess abt living seven generations apart,must be a logical error at Genesis. You said, you don't read old testament, else i would have shown you such errors in it.
We will look at one such error from Mathews
"So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations." [Matt. 1:17]
It is obviously not correct, because since the first group from Abraham to David, includes David in it, he must be excluded from the second group as he cannot be counted twice. The second group should start with Solomon and end with Jeconias, thus excluding him from the third group. The third group should start from Salathiel, which leaves only 13 generations in the last group.
Now to an other error
Paul reported God's word regarding the prominence of Jesus over the angels in his letter to the Hebrews [Heb. 1:5]: "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son." Christian scholars have claimed that this is a reference to the verses in 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles . This claim is not acceptable for several reasons.
1. The text of Chronicles is unambiguous saying that the son's name will be Solomon.
2. Both the texts say that he would build a house in the name of God. This can only be applied to Solomon who built the house of God, as promised. Jesus, on the other hand was born one thousand and three years after the construction of this house and used to talk of its destruction.
3. Both predictions foretold that he would be a king, where as Jesus was not a king, on the contrary he was a poor man as he himself said:
"And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the son of man hath not where to lay his head." [Matt. 8:20]
4. It is clearly stated in the first prediction that:
"If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men."
This implies that he will be a man of iniquitous nature. According to the Christians � and they are far from the truthSolomon was a man of that nature and gave up the prophethood and became an apostate in his last days, indulging in idol worship, building temples for the idols, and committing himself to heathenism. Whereas Jesus was absolutely innocent, and could not commit a sin of any kind.
5. In the text of Chronicles it says clearly:
"Who shall be a man of rest, and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about."
However, Jesus, according to the Christians, was never in peace right from his early days up to the time of the crucifixion. He lived in constant fear of the Jews and left one place for another until he was arrested by them and, they say, killed. Solomon, on the other hand, fulfilled the condition of living in rest from his enemies.
6. In the prediction of Chronicles the Israelites are promised:
"I will give peace and quieteness unto Israel in his days."
Whereas it is historically known to everyone that the Jews were servile to and dominated by the Romans in the time of Jesus.
7. The Prophet Solomon, himself has claimed that the prediction was made about him. This is clear from 2 Chronicles.
Although the Christians agree that these tidings were for Solomon, they say that it was in fact for Jesus too, as he was a descendant of Solomon. We contend that this is a false claim because the attributes of the predicted son must coincide with the description of the prophecy. We have already shown that Jesus does not fulfill the requirements of the prediction.
Apart from this, Jesus cannot be the subject of this prediction, even according to the Christian scholars. In order to remove the contradiction between the genealogical descriptions of Jesus in Mathew and Luke, they have said that Matthew described the genealogy of Joseph of Nazareth, while Luke described the genealogy of Mary. However, Jesus was not the son of Joseph, but rather the son of Mary, and according to her genealogy Jesus is the descendant of Nathan, son of David, and not the son of Solomon. Hope you agree with it.
Edited by seekshidayath - 11 February 2009 at 5:50pm |
|||||||||
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
|
|||||||||
thomasd
Groupie Joined: 13 July 2008 Status: Offline Points: 43 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||
I do read the Old Testament, however our covenant with God is the covenant of the Jesus's sacrifice in the New Testament. Nimrod:
Abraham (or rather Abram, as this is before God changed his name)
It doesn't matter if David is counted twice, as it never claims there were 42 generations, it just relates how many generations there were from Abraham - David and David - exile
Before I rebutt the rest of your post, I agree that the particular prophesy you are talking about was referring to Solomon, however the specifics of your argument in favor of that are incorrect.
And that he would be rebuild it in three days, this being a metaphor for his own resurrection, for after he rose from the dead, we no longer needed to offer sacrifices through priests to speak to God, we could do it directly, and so HE took the place of the temple as the way by which we speak with God. Indeed, at the moment of his death the current separating the Holy of Holies (where it was beleived that God dwelt) from the rest of the temple ripped in half.
If he is a direct descendant of David (interestingly enough, both Mary and Joseph were descendants of David) then he was certainly of the royal bloodline of Israel, and if he was truly God-incarnate as I believe, then he is the king above all kings.
How could he possibly have been in fear of "the Jews"? He was one, and for that matter most of the people adored him.
That isn't fear....it's submission. Edited by thomasd - 12 February 2009 at 6:48pm |
|||||||||
seekshidayath
Senior Member Female Islam Joined: 26 March 2006 Location: India Status: Offline Points: 3357 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||
Thanks for the genealogy. But thimas, what i as a muslim believe is, Quran contains many historical events. Some are narrated in details and some are not. Like genealogy as well as dialogue between Nimrod and Ibrahim {AS}. Qur'an discusses only the dialogue between them. When the Qur�an leaves out a matter, it means that it is of no importance to us. On the other hand, any information provided by the Qur�an has a useful purpose. In other words,we do not persist in the pursuit of information not provided by the Qur�an and concentrate on what it indicates clearly to see how we can benefit from it.
|
|||||||||
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
|
|||||||||
thomasd
Groupie Joined: 13 July 2008 Status: Offline Points: 43 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||
My point is that they can't possibly have had dialogue if they lived that far apart, which leads me to question the accuracy of the Qur'an as a whole. |
|||||||||
_ALI_
Groupie Male Joined: 17 February 2008 Status: Offline Points: 76 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||
Salam thomasd
You said
ok. so. I have a question for all of you.
Genesis 10 and 11 have the genealogies of Nimrod and Abraham, and according to this, they lived approximately 7 generations apart. Much later Jewish tradition developed tales of conflicts between Nimrod and Abraham, but these are more in the vein of what would be considered folktales juxtaposing two well known historical characters, rather than authentic historical record. Nonetheless, the Qur'an mirrors the later narrative, rather than the former, and I'm curious as to what the accepted explanation for this is, or how many of you have come across this particular information before. Naturally, it seems implausible to me that two men, living 7 generations apart would come in direct conflict with each other. Now according to the Bible, there is a gap of 7 generations. Hence according to the Bible they couldn't have had the conversation. Quran says that they had that conversation.
Based on this, you cannot deduce that: Hence Quran is not authentic. You can only deduce: Hence, Quran contradicts with the Bible. You see, you are assuming Bible to be completely true. You might as well say: Bible says that Jesus is God (a debatable statement but let's assume it is true). Quran says Jesus is not God. Hence Quran is not authentic.
That wouldn't be right.
I'm not saying that all the historical data in the Bible is wrong. According to Muslims, some part of the Bible is true. Some part isn't. Some prophecies of the Bible were fulfilled. Some were not. Similarly, some historical data may be correct. Some may be incorrect.
Hence either you get an authentic source and prove that there was a gap of 7 generations or you prove that Bible is the truth/word of God.
|
|||||||||
Akhe Abdullah
Senior Member Male Joined: 19 November 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1252 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||
|
|||||||||
Akhe Abdullah
Senior Member Male Joined: 19 November 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1252 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||
|
|||||||||
Post Reply | Page <1234> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |