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France: Muslim too submissive for citizenship
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Chrysalis View Drop Down
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Points: 2033 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 July 2008 at 3:16am
Originally posted by believer believer wrote:

Let's flip the coin- If a woman that believes heart and soul in the woman's liberation movement would she be allowed to wear modest clothing and no scarf in Afgahnistan, Saudi Arabia, any Muslim country.
 
I have issue my self with anything that covers the face-lol!! except of course when weather demands a scarf.
 
Our faces are our identity, how we recognize each other, even infants recognize faces.  People that cover their faces have something to hide, bank robbers, etc.
 
Apart from the silly statement that faces are an identity thus always need to be visible etc etc etc , what the French govt is doing is the oppositte extreme of what the Saudi govt does (Like Ron correctly mentioned). Both are following extremes and infringing rights.
 
As long as the dress-code fulfills average standards of modesty, no country has a right to enforce a certain dress-code on its citizens, especially those of the another faith. Infact, in MOST
muslim countries you will not see this 'enforcement' and both muslims and nonmuslims have the right to dress as they wish, keeping within a set standard.
 
Though I am a strong proponent of the Hijab, and deeply respect sisters that observe the Niqaab, and Burqa - I do not think that 'forcing' ppl by law is a way to deal with Hijab, and that is a concious, religous/pious/spiritual/lifestyle choice. Something which can be taked about in detail later. And we also do not see any such acts done during Prophet Muhammad's time, or the Khalifas.
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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H3OO View Drop Down
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Originally posted by believer believer wrote:

Let's flip the coin- If a woman that believes heart and soul in the woman's liberation movement would she be allowed to wear modest clothing and no scarf in Afgahnistan, Saudi Arabia, any Muslim country.
 


valid point. i do believe she wouldnt be allowed

when any unlikable thing falls on ones own feat they'll make all the
noises but when they do the same to other they'll act as if they had no clue about it

This problem exists with people of all the religions but ofcourse no religion teaches us all that specially islam
thats forsure.

but one question i'll like to ask u is that it was the west that
raised the slogan freedom of speech, expression,... that everyone has the
right to express the way they feel.

so i would ask where did that freedom
go now. that lady has the right to wear whatever she desires, whatever she feels comfortable in, surely she isnt hurting anyone. its her freedom that west has been talking about. isnt it it sir?

if a woman can walk naked in france without any problem/restrictions then covering everything cant be that bad, infact even a bit bad


Edited by H3OO - 14 July 2008 at 9:10am
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aka2x2 View Drop Down
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�My question is: why would this woman want to live in France?  Why move to a country whose values are so different and so incompatible with her own?�

 

She wants to live in France because her husband is French and her children were born there.

 

Admittedly wearing a burqa is not the �norm� in France, but that does not mean she has a different value system. She may still value freedom of religion and freedom of expression, not to mention electricity, clean food and water, a functional government, etc.
Respectfully
aka2x2
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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If she shares the same values as her husband, then the question becomes why would her husband want to live in France?  Or if she doesn't share his values, then why does she want to live with him?  Either way, I think he/they belong in Morocco, or wherever burqas are the norm.
 
Call it cultural differences, value systems, or whatever you like -- the fact is that this woman will not be accepted by the French people.  She will feel isolated, trapped in her home, she will have few friends if any.  She will be stared at wherever she goes (if she ever goes anywhere), and people will view her with suspicion and distrust.  Maybe that is unfair, but that is the way things will be.
 
Apparently her husband doesn't care about any of that, but that doesn't make it right.  I'm not sure she should be denied entry, but I certainly understand the reasons behind the decision.
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Chrysalis View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

If she shares the same values as her husband, then the question becomes why would her husband want to live in France?  Or if she doesn't share his values, then why does she want to live with him?  Either way, I think he/they belong in Morocco, or wherever burqas are the norm.
 
 
So you are saying that only people who have the same value-system/beliefs should be living in the same geographical area???
 
Only a person who has the same values as the French would want to live in France?
 
 


Edited by Chrysalis - 15 July 2008 at 6:26am
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Hayfa View Drop Down
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And also define values.. we are a rainbow of colors so to speak in most of these countries.. how does anyone define "French?"
 
Would seem most important is to respect the rule of law in a land.. say speeding for instance.. but define a culture.. I think of French and I think of break and cheese.. lol
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2008 at 5:03pm
Originally posted by Chrysalis Chrysalis wrote:

So you are saying that only people who have the same value-system/beliefs should be living in the same geographical area???
It depends what you mean by "should", but for her sake I would say yes.  I have no doubt she would be happier among people who are more likely to accept her.
 
I am less sure that the government should deny her citizenship solely on that basis, but let's remember that she is not a citizen yet, and they have no obligation to her.  They do have certain obligations to her French husband, which is what makes me doubtful whether they ought to block her entry; but it's still up to her and her husband to show why she should be admitted, not the other way around.
 
Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:

And also define values.. we are a rainbow of colors so to speak in most of these countries.. how does anyone define "French?"
 
Would seem most important is to respect the rule of law in a land.. say speeding for instance.. but define a culture.. I think of French and I think of break and cheese.. lol
 
Among the core political values of any democracy are equality (including gender equality) and the right to vote, both of which she apparently rejects.  Culturally, when I think of French women I think of romance, physical beauty and strong sexuality.  Just watch a few French films and you'll see what I mean.
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Chrysalis View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

It depends what you mean by "should", but for her sake I would say yes.  I have no doubt she would be happier among people who are more likely to accept her.
 
For 'her sake' ? How do you know how 'happy' or 'unhappy' she will be living in France? The mere fact that she is willing to go-thru the initial rejection shows that apparently she does believe she will happy there. she would apparently be happier living with her family in France . . . who knows what are thier reasons? I'm guessing her husband has to be there because of his job, and she wishes to be with him along with her kids. Apparently it doesnt matter to her at all whether or not ppl accept her. And living amongst ppl of the same culture does not automatically mean she will be accepted. . . ! Loads of ppl face rejections by thier own society for being different in one way or another.
 
  
 
 
 
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Among the core political values of any democracy are equality (including gender equality) and the right to vote, both of which she apparently rejects. 
 
That is not at all a valid reason for rejecting anyone a citizenship! Lots of French already living in France probably share the same views. If it were another person without a Niqaab, but same values/opinions, he/she would not have faced the same probs.
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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