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believer 
Guest Group
Joined: 08 January 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1397
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 Posted: 13 August 2008 at 6:31am |
Minuteman said:
believer:
Making Mohammad sinless makes him a god and a partner to Allah.
But you have Jesus as a god and sinless. So Jesus is definitely a partner to God. Is he a helper for God and in what respect he is a partner? Might be a shareholder. Jesus seems to be a separate entity because according to church, he is sitting at right hand of God. So must still be different from God and both the real Big God and Jesus must be sitting close together.
It is a silly thing to say that God is sinless. It is a silly thing to even think about sin in respect of God. God does not need your certificates. Please think over.
Minuteman - it is all in how we understand our GOD. I happen to believe that GOD'S Word is Jesus in the flesh, you don't.
I believe that Mohammad like all prophets is man and thereful just as sinful and saintly as all other man. Muslims disagree.
GOD's Word [Jesus] is sitting at the right hand of GOD. GOD is standing by His Word. God's Word is sinless, Jesus as GOD's Word is sinless.
Think of the power of the man's word spoken or written, even as people our words can live after we are gone. Some words can stab through the heart and some can build a person up.
Yes Chrysalis we have to allow each other to believe and express their beliefs in their own way or the hatred will never be erased.
Nur asks-
Back to the thread. Ever wonder why Judaism is not expanding and Christianity being shunned by most Christians? However Islam is expanding in the four corners of the world?
There are Muslims and others entering Christianity, but they have to stay undercover for fear of persecution. There are many people sending Bible secretly to countries were Bible have to be kept hidden.
GOD's Word tells us that only a few will find the light and truth:
The Narrow and Wide Gates
13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Edited by believer - 13 August 2008 at 6:38am
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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Angel
Senior Member
Joined: 03 July 2001
Status: Offline
Points: 6641
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Posted: 13 August 2008 at 7:30am |
 Nur_Ilahi wrote:
Why do you need to see Israfil asking for forgiveness? It's none of your business really, its a private matter between him and God not you or the public.
Normally a Muslim, would not be afraid to utter words of repentence like Astaghfirullah whenever we make a mistake. That is normal. |
Perhaps normally a muslim/s wouldn't be afraid, but that doesn't mean you have to every 5 minutes all day everyday to the public. Hafya is right, please read her post, this is something i have learnt in the 7 years of learning and being involved here from various muslims. You Nur should do something and learn from your brethren and relax your staunch position.
| His refusal in doing so, just speaks volumes. |
HONESTLY!! 
NUR, NOTHING THAT IS EVER SAID TO SEE THAT YOU ARE WRONG AND FALSELY ASSUMING THINGS IS GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE, YOU HAVE MADE YOUR MIND UP ABOUT ISRAFIL. OTHERS HAVE MENTIONED YOU ARE WRONG ESPECIALLY IN THE OTHER THREAD THAT GOT CLOSED, YOU ARE NOT EVEN LISTENING TO YOUR MUSLIM BROTHERS AND SISTERS.
| Anyway, I am also tired of this debate. |
Are you??
by the way I am not shouting, just emphazing a point coz me too is tired from this.
Edited by Angel - 13 August 2008 at 7:32am
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 ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Whisper
Senior Member
Male
Joined: 25 July 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4752
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Posted: 13 August 2008 at 10:53am |
When I had just started to grow up, padre insisted that I must read Aesop�s Fables and with just a bit of attention. I have since long grown out of growing up and had almost forgotten most of these fabulous fables.
But this string reminds me of a particular fable in which four blind men went to �see� an elephant. And, each one was blowing his own absolutely limited experience without trying �to see� the real picture!
It�s a great string started by our great resident feel�o�sofar who seems to float into our world, but always as a full scale American - sin any exposure of the world beyond his block of flats. Could anyone sit up and tell me �what is the actual extent, the number of people who practice hatred in the Abrahimic faith�s�?
Is their numbers, all across our globe, greater than that of the New York muggers?
What�s the historical evidence?
How come that the Muslims, the Christians and all those Jewish people had a Joint Venture together of not just civilised progress, but in absolute harmony and peace, FOR JUST A WEE OVER 800 SOME YEARS. The signs of that still exist and I touch them every single day of my life, here in Spain.
They played a similar drama in Turkiye for almost a good SIX centuries.
I am lucky enough to have witnessed it�s leftovers for a good couple of years of my stay in that country that you may call Turkey for some reason!
The hatred in the Abrahimic faiths exists merely as a figment of the Hang Low Sexnon state departments and was manufactured by our great British Special Services agents, CIRCA 1832 - soon after those well known Greek wars in which my great friend Lord Byron also participated along with quite a few of those English romanticists.
People, human beings, I promise, even a good majority of (deep hatred fried) Americans prefer to hold and hug people. This is man�s basic need. It�s in our psyche. We tend to love and be loved rather than hate. Hate is manufactured with hard effort, it�s a product of spin doctors.
And, don�t tell me we didn�t have spin doctors before Carl Rove or Alistair Campbell. Don�t, please, try and convince me that we never had any rouges before our dear Tony Blair.
People don�t like to hate.
Period.
This hatred exists just in the two and half cells the participants in this string seem to display amongst them, put together. You are promoting what the State Department wishes to promote for the sake of masking their Mid Eastern crimes.
Does any of you hold the courage to stand up and tell us how many people have hated each other, say, purely on religious basis, in these past two decades?
And is their number any greater than the number of any sick people in any sample society?
I have seen and got more love from my Christian and Jewish friends in all my wandering years than is possibly to yer state department�s war mongering taste.
You are all gathered here to establish hatred that does NOT exist at any other BUT just the POLITICAL LEVEL. Good luck, the Neo-Cons will be most pleased by all my friends with half baked brain cells.
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Israfil
Senior Member
Joined: 08 September 2003
Status: Offline
Points: 3984
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Posted: 13 August 2008 at 1:29pm |
Whisper wrote:
When I had just started to grow up, padre insisted that I must read Aesop�s Fables and with just a bit of attention. I have since long grown out of growing up and had almost forgotten most of these fabulous fables.
But this string reminds me of a particular fable in which four blind men went to �see� an elephant. And, each one was blowing his own absolutely limited experience without trying �to see� the real picture!
It�s a great string started by our great resident feel�o�sofar who seems to float into our world, but always as a full scale American - sin any exposure of the world beyond his block of flats. Could anyone sit up and tell me �what is the actual extent, the number of people who practice hatred in the Abrahimic faith�s�?
Is their numbers, all across our globe, greater than that of the New York muggers?
What�s the historical evidence?
How come that the Muslims, the Christians and all those Jewish people had a Joint Venture together of not just civilised progress, but in absolute harmony and peace, FOR JUST A WEE OVER 800 SOME YEARS. The signs of that still exist and I touch them every single day of my life, here in Spain.
They played a similar drama in Turkiye for almost a good SIX centuries.
I am lucky enough to have witnessed it�s leftovers for a good couple of years of my stay in that country that you may call Turkey for some reason!
The hatred in the Abrahimic faiths exists merely as a figment of the Hang Low Sexnon state departments and was manufactured by our great British Special Services agents, CIRCA 1832 - soon after those well known Greek wars in which my great friend Lord Byron also participated along with quite a few of those English romanticists.
People, human beings, I promise, even a good majority of (deep hatred fried) Americans prefer to hold and hug people. This is man�s basic need. It�s in our psyche. We tend to love and be loved rather than hate. Hate is manufactured with hard effort, it�s a product of spin doctors.
And, don�t tell me we didn�t have spin doctors before Carl Rove or Alistair Campbell. Don�t, please, try and convince me that we never had any rouges before our dear Tony Blair.
People don�t like to hate.
Period.
This hatred exists just in the two and half cells the participants in this string seem to display amongst them, put together. You are promoting what the State Department wishes to promote for the sake of masking their Mid Eastern crimes.
Does any of you hold the courage to stand up and tell us how many people have hated each other, say, purely on religious basis, in these past two decades?
And is their number any greater than the number of any sick people in any sample society?
I have seen and got more love from my Christian and Jewish friends in all my wandering years than is possibly to yer state department�s war mongering taste.
You are all gathered here to establish hatred that does NOT exist at any other BUT just the POLITICAL LEVEL. Good luck, the Neo-Cons will be most pleased by all my friends with half baked brain cells.
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That was a different time and a different history. Sure we can easily say (in your language) that colonialist whites have a greater responsibility in sowing the hatred between Abrahamic religious members such as events like the Crusades, the Salem witch trials etc. However how far is this responsibility? Was it the whites who aused the Almohads to expel the Jews and Christians from the city of Cordoba? Was it the whites during the expansion of the Muslim empire from Arabia through North Africa to displace millions of Africans from their culture and their homes? Muslims like Jews and Christians have a shared responsibility in history and in time regarding the mistreatment between each other. This is an important issue to address and although you like to use satirical language to poke fun at the issue regardless of your 8oo+ years reference statements it still has no effect today.
In countries where religious teachings are open and influential there are many Muslims who are trained in religious teachings to dislike Jews and Christians. Whether this is politically motivated or not it is a reality. There are Christians in American and through the world who are taught that everyone else is going to hell except them. There are Jews who are taught that Gentiles will not see the world to come and will forever be stuck in the limbo of Shiloh.
There are individuals who do hate on a religious grounds. We all have seen and it doesn't require the use of the word "hate" to see hatred within the words of a person. We see it in judgemental statements, we see it in actions and other aggressive behaviors. Even condemning someone to hell simply because they don't believe in something we may believe in hatred because you are not only judging them but condeming them to a painful infinite existence beyond this world. Many Christians tend to do this a lot not so much Jews but there are fanatical Jews who, for political reasons are just as evil and ugly as these zealous Christians.
In theory, I believe the reason there is hatred is because there is not enouh knowledge of either religion. when discussing the Talmud and writings in the Talmud many Muslims cannot refer to any rabbinical sayings nor any popular rabbinical writings regarding the Tanakh, yet, when it comes to defending a particular verse we famously say "read Qur'an or Hadith" yet, what are we pointing to in hadith and Qur'an? Similarly with Christians who know little about Islam they comment on the Qur'an for face value without investigating the truth. But this investigation is naught since, prior to even investigating many Christians hold a pre-conceived notion on what Islam is about anyway so even if they do further investigation it will only be the benefit of their pre-conceived notion of how "violent" Islam is.
In additon in answering your question with a question: ow many of us can say that we truly know what Christianity or what Judaism is about? Aside from reading their respective books. Can we say with confidence that in Jewish writings this corresponds to this or that? You say you see the "tinge" of the once peaceful spain where you live yet, from my understanding in the news some years ago there was a dispute of keping Muslims from praying in a former Mosque now a museum. If such is true then highly doubt this tinge you feel is comparable to the 800+ years of so-called peace.
Nur_Ilahi expects me to apologize only because I said with irrefutable defense that Muhammad is not perfect. I provided evidence for it but she must be willing to let that go and if she wishes to continue this God forsaken argument she is more than welcome to PM me. Of course she won't because she has flawed arguements, just like the others who tried to defend this position. Anyway, I'm beyond that particular discussion.
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Hayfa
Senior Member
Female
Joined: 07 June 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2368
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Posted: 13 August 2008 at 6:36pm |
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Hatred is used to prop oneself up... "Iam better than so and so" It ca ncome from both arrogance and insecurity.
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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Angel
Senior Member
Joined: 03 July 2001
Status: Offline
Points: 6641
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Posted: 13 August 2008 at 8:29pm |
last 3 post..finally some descent discussion.
For me, I was looking back to pretty much the formations of the religions. Not in recent times. Only because Minuteman actually posed the point in finding the cause and sometimes you need to go back to the start to see. Even Isaac and Ismail were at odds, i don't know about complete hatred but there were at least some tensions between them.
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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Israfil
Senior Member
Joined: 08 September 2003
Status: Offline
Points: 3984
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Posted: 13 August 2008 at 9:01pm |
Angel that is a good point. We can examine past histories extending all the way to beginning on how hatred among members of the Abrahamic faiths began, and how this has extended and affected how we think and feel about our opposites in different faiths. Again I have to single out believer as an example of this notion. When we sit there and repetitively argue the same point about how this religion is wrong our opinions begin to lose value respectively.
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Whisper
Senior Member
Male
Joined: 25 July 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4752
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Posted: 13 August 2008 at 10:59pm |
Hatred is used to prop oneself up... "I am better than so and so" It can come from both arrogance and insecurity.
I sometimes, sincerely, wish that only woman should be allowed to think for us heard. I have never been able to find out from where do the pobre men, specially, the �Feel Low sofars� kind, think from? Their favourite thing happens to be what they are famous for chasing in their golf clubs!
I am here challenging these great Think Tanks of our world in just providing us the PERCENTAGE of people who HATE people of other faiths - just for their faiths - not for their practice of killing, pillage, loot and whatever.
But has anyone come up with an answer?
Just throwing even lengthier passages at us the humble lot. These mean are keen to display their brains for the simple reason that they happen to have none.
Just put up the PERCENTAGE of haters on pure religious basis or please simply shut up!
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Hatred within the Abrahamic faiths