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ADEENUL �AQL � RELIGION IS INTELLECT .
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Hayfa View Drop Down
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Points: 2368 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hayfa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2008 at 8:51am

Women and men are more segregated in certain areas to help people focus. Yes there is nothing inherently wrong with desire. It is a blessing. But there is a time and place for it.  And when people pray one should limit the distractions as possible. That is why for the segregation. Plus in prayer we do touch in lines. When I line up with the women we touch shoulder to shoulder. We accidently bump and touch.

Most Muslims in "public" areas mix. I lived in Pakistan for seveal months.. and men and women do work together. There is no problem with that. The modest dress by both men and women is part of the culture.  Not sure where people get that men and women do not "mix" in other forums. The main point is to not be alone with men with whom you are not married or related to.
 
At the masjid I go to they had graduation for the kids and familes say together.. no problem. 
 
In my mind, intellect.. lol, the modest dress code is to help preserve the sacredness of the relationship of husband and wife. The commercialization and crassness that exists is rather sad actually.
 
And it is not just in Indonesia, women all over the globe do not go out at night. I teach self-defense. And you know, it is a dangeous world out there. Women are assaulted, raped and beaten. Violence is a reality of our lives. Yes no one should assault another.. well.. until it stops if women choose not to take those risks why should they?
 
You'd think that men could have more "self-control" but watch men, from any culture.. women walks down street in certain outfit..watch their eyes..
 
 
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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honeto View Drop Down
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Points: 2487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2008 at 11:11am
Merigen,
I agree with you that men as well as women should know their limits and not use "man is made weak" excuse to fall in error.
There arise two issues after that:
1) what are those limits, as we all believe in some limitations as to how far we can go.
For example here in the West (I live in USA, and see and know the reality), its OK to have one or multiple intimate or sexual relationships with opposite (now even same) sex without getting married, according to man made standards, which change and vary from place to place and time to time.
Islam is a devine guidance, it regulates a person's interactions with others in ways that benefits that person and the society, plus by living by them he/she fulfills God's will thus achieving the purpose of life. Thus Islam, and I am sure many Christian denominations forbid such relationships and what causes them.
 
2- Islam is a very natural, logical social system and a way of life, when it identifies an issues as wrong and bad, it offers a very logical solution to it, not only that, it also address the root causes and fixes it there.
We know that most of our actions start as an intention. We see something, we get idea, then we implement it. 
I work in a mall, and see and observe a lot of people, all ages, races. I have seen  that a 'partially dressed young lady walking by makes men, even her grandfather's age men to turn around and take a peek as what she has exposed and has to offer. If someone is dresseed more full, seem to get less attention causes less heads to turn. Now typically when a head turns and the person takes a look it starts a thought in that man's mind, "wow" look at those..... or that... or she is...., even if those words don't get to lips, they cirlce in the heart, and further imagination get things further.
God knows that nature of man, He made us, and He knows All. So God has addressed the issue and solved it by telling us how to dress so you don't arouse wrong feelings. How to interact between the opposite sexes so we don't provide seeds to unwanted ideas and actions leading to immoral fruits.
I and those of us who have experienced life here in the West know how easy it is to get what you desire because the system provides ample oppertunities. We humans are weak and have proved that if provided oppuertunity, majority of us would fall for it. So when sexes are seperated (adults) in Islam, its is for a good purpose, Islam does not overlook a real problem and nor it compromises with such a serious issue rather take the preventive measures so to root it out.
Hasan  
 


Edited by honeto - 17 June 2008 at 11:18am
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2008 at 4:32pm

Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

I don't know if God "loves" music as I take the position of Moses Maimonides in believing that God is beyond our desires adn has left those to us.

I thought Muslims (like Christians) believed in a "personal" God, i.e. a God with attributes similar to our own, and in whose image we were made.  Not so?

Quote I believe all those qualities of a human being should be enjoyed to their fullest extent because that is where we enjoy our humanity however there must also be a balance to that enjoyment.

I can't argue with that, but I wonder how far you would take it.  Should we enjoy alcohol, even in moderation?  Should we enjoy the beauty of the female body, other than that of our own wives?
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Points: 52 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Merigen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2008 at 4:35pm
Hi Hasan,
 
I do agree with you on some of these issues.  In some cases, way to much liberty is taken in dress.  I'm thinking though that the dress is not really the issue but the person themselves.  If they were covered up they'd find other ways to attract attention. 
 
Living in the West as you do you are aware that certain ways of modified dress are very acceptable such as shorts in the hot summer months.  I don't think people pay much attention one way or another.  Here if we see a woman totally covered up from head to toe, the first thing that comes to mind is not that she is being modest but what is she hiding?  In that case we feel she is drawing attention to herself rather than not.
 
I agree there is alot of sexual freedom.  I feel that is something that will have to work itself out as people mature and grow.  I don't think it is as rampant as it once was.  I have many gay friends.  I believe it is determined at birth and not really of the person's choosing.  Two of my friends have been together for twenty years and are very committed to each other.  They work hard, pay taxes and contribute to their community.
 
The separation of sexes in the West is pretty impractical as I said in the other post.  Our lives intersect at all levels.  I really can't imagine just having female friends and this is the norm for us.  All people in my family and group of friends have always had friends - and friends is just what is was - of the opposite sex starting from grade school.
 
I know there is a difference of opinion on these matters.  Thank you for writing to me.
 
Merigen
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2008 at 4:46pm

Originally posted by honeto honeto wrote:

1) what are those limits, as we all believe in some limitations as to how far we can go.

I would say that the limit is where the harms to society outweigh the benefits to the individuals.  Exactly how you measure that is a difficult question, of course.

Quote I work in a mall, and see and observe a lot of people, all ages, races. I have seen  that a 'partially dressed young lady walking by makes men, even her grandfather's age men to turn around and take a peek as what she has exposed and has to offer. If someone is dresseed more full, seem to get less attention causes less heads to turn. Now typically when a head turns and the person takes a look it starts a thought in that man's mind, "wow" look at those..... or that... or she is...., even if those words don't get to lips, they cirlce in the heart, and further imagination get things further.

And what's wrong with that?

"Standing on the corner, watching all the girls go by;
Standing on the corner, underneath the springtime sky;
Brother, you can't go to jail for what you're thinking,
Or for the woo look in your eye;
You're only standing on the corner,
Watching all the girls,
Watching all the girls,
Watching all the girls
Go by."

Big%20smile
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Merigen View Drop Down
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Points: 52 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Merigen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2008 at 6:07pm
Hi Ron,
 
Was this a man named Guy Mitchell's song?  I remember it from my childhood.  It was always done in a light-hearted manner. 
 
Merigen
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Originally posted by Merigen Merigen wrote:

Was this a man named Guy Mitchell's song?  I remember it from my childhood.  It was always done in a light-hearted manner.
 
"Standing on the Corner" was written by Frank Loesser in 1956 for the Broadway musical "Most Happy Fella".  The version I remember most is from the Four Lads in 1960, but lots of people sang it, maybe including Guy Mitchell.  And yes, it was a charming, light-hearted song, from those halcyon days when people actually wrote and sang light-hearted songs.
 
For nostalgia buffs, the lyrics are here:


Edited by Ron Webb - 18 June 2008 at 4:21pm
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Points: 52 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Merigen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2008 at 5:04pm
Hi Ron,
 
Yes, as soon as you wrote about the 4 Lads, something clicked which was not clicking last night obviously.  I think Guy Mitchell sang a song called "Never Felt More Like Singin the Blues".  Of course I'm probably still confused but it is fun reminiscing.  I'm the type that gets song lyrics mixed up too.  I thought that Don't cry for me Argentina - you were supposed to be immortal was - you were supposed to be deported.  I'm great fun at a musicalConfused
 
Merigen
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