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ADEENUL �AQL � RELIGION IS INTELLECT . |
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Merigen 
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Joined: 26 May 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 52 |
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 Posted: 17 June 2008 at 4:35pm |
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Hi Hasan,
I do agree with you on some of these issues. In some cases, way to much liberty is taken in dress. I'm thinking though that the dress is not really the issue but the person themselves. If they were covered up they'd find other ways to attract attention.
Living in the West as you do you are aware that certain ways of modified dress are very acceptable such as shorts in the hot summer months. I don't think people pay much attention one way or another. Here if we see a woman totally covered up from head to toe, the first thing that comes to mind is not that she is being modest but what is she hiding? In that case we feel she is drawing attention to herself rather than not.
I agree there is alot of sexual freedom. I feel that is something that will have to work itself out as people mature and grow. I don't think it is as rampant as it once was. I have many gay friends. I believe it is determined at birth and not really of the person's choosing. Two of my friends have been together for twenty years and are very committed to each other. They work hard, pay taxes and contribute to their community.
The separation of sexes in the West is pretty impractical as I said in the other post. Our lives intersect at all levels. I really can't imagine just having female friends and this is the norm for us. All people in my family and group of friends have always had friends - and friends is just what is was - of the opposite sex starting from grade school.
I know there is a difference of opinion on these matters. Thank you for writing to me.
Merigen
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Ron Webb
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Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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Posted: 17 June 2008 at 4:32pm |
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I thought Muslims (like Christians) believed in a "personal" God, i.e. a God with attributes similar to our own, and in whose image we were made. Not so?
I can't argue with that, but I wonder how far you would take it. Should we enjoy alcohol, even in moderation? Should we enjoy the beauty of the female body, other than that of our own wives? |
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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honeto
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Male Islam Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 2487 |
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Posted: 17 June 2008 at 11:11am |
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Merigen,
I agree with you that men as well as women should know their limits and not use "man is made weak" excuse to fall in error.
There arise two issues after that:
1) what are those limits, as we all believe in some limitations as to how far we can go.
For example here in the West (I live in USA, and see and know the reality), its OK to have one or multiple intimate or sexual relationships with opposite (now even same) sex without getting married, according to man made standards, which change and vary from place to place and time to time.
Islam is a devine guidance, it regulates a person's interactions with others in ways that benefits that person and the society, plus by living by them he/she fulfills God's will thus achieving the purpose of life. Thus Islam, and I am sure many Christian denominations forbid such relationships and what causes them.
2- Islam is a very natural, logical social system and a way of life, when it identifies an issues as wrong and bad, it offers a very logical solution to it, not only that, it also address the root causes and fixes it there.
We know that most of our actions start as an intention. We see something, we get idea, then we implement it.
I work in a mall, and see and observe a lot of people, all ages, races. I have seen that a 'partially dressed young lady walking by makes men, even her grandfather's age men to turn around and take a peek as what she has exposed and has to offer. If someone is dresseed more full, seem to get less attention causes less heads to turn. Now typically when a head turns and the person takes a look it starts a thought in that man's mind, "wow" look at those..... or that... or she is...., even if those words don't get to lips, they cirlce in the heart, and further imagination get things further.
God knows that nature of man, He made us, and He knows All. So God has addressed the issue and solved it by telling us how to dress so you don't arouse wrong feelings. How to interact between the opposite sexes so we don't provide seeds to unwanted ideas and actions leading to immoral fruits.
I and those of us who have experienced life here in the West know how easy it is to get what you desire because the system provides ample oppertunities. We humans are weak and have proved that if provided oppuertunity, majority of us would fall for it. So when sexes are seperated (adults) in Islam, its is for a good purpose, Islam does not overlook a real problem and nor it compromises with such a serious issue rather take the preventive measures so to root it out.
Hasan
Edited by honeto - 17 June 2008 at 11:18am |
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Hayfa
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Female Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2368 |
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Posted: 17 June 2008 at 8:51am |
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Women and men are more segregated in certain areas to help people focus. Yes there is nothing inherently wrong with desire. It is a blessing. But there is a time and place for it. And when people pray one should limit the distractions as possible. That is why for the segregation. Plus in prayer we do touch in lines. When I line up with the women we touch shoulder to shoulder. We accidently bump and touch. Most Muslims in "public" areas mix. I lived in Pakistan for seveal months.. and men and women do work together. There is no problem with that. The modest dress by both men and women is part of the culture. Not sure where people get that men and women do not "mix" in other forums. The main point is to not be alone with men with whom you are not married or related to.At the masjid I go to they had graduation for the kids and familes say together.. no problem.
In my mind, intellect.. lol, the modest dress code is to help preserve the sacredness of the relationship of husband and wife. The commercialization and crassness that exists is rather sad actually.
And it is not just in Indonesia, women all over the globe do not go out at night. I teach self-defense. And you know, it is a dangeous world out there. Women are assaulted, raped and beaten. Violence is a reality of our lives. Yes no one should assault another.. well.. until it stops if women choose not to take those risks why should they?
You'd think that men could have more "self-control" but watch men, from any culture.. women walks down street in certain outfit..watch their eyes..
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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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believer
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Joined: 08 January 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1397 |
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Posted: 17 June 2008 at 8:08am |
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Many Christians during prayer hold hands- men and women, children young and old, friends and family memebers holding hands praying together.
It is very strong and moving, 1 people together talking to GOD.
You are no more then an animal if you can not control your lust!!
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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
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Merigen
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Joined: 26 May 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 52 |
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Posted: 16 June 2008 at 6:55pm |
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Hello Israfil, I liked your post to Ron Webb expecially because it was off the top of your head and not from a documented Islamic source. I'll read more about the information you gave. Thank you! Merigen |
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Merigen
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Joined: 26 May 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 52 |
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Posted: 16 June 2008 at 6:49pm |
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Minuteman,
Segregation is necessary. There is no need to mix up the unrelated persons of opposite sex. The result will be what is now available in Europe. WE Muslims do not need to provide any better proof of such things. There is definite attraction between persons of opposite sex. At times there is urge (desire).
Women feel more comfortable when working with other women. Plus and minus terminals should be kept away or reasonably insulated from each other.
Where do you live? I think it would be pretty impractical to segregate people at work. To make light of the situation I ask, why would you get involved with someone you work with when you have so many daily problems to begin with? I actually do work with women only in the department I am assigned to but I see men daily - "Hey! Are you? How's your wife and kids? How is school? How's your girlfriend?, How's your new dog or cat?, etc." If the person in the cubicle next to me was male, it wouldn't make a bit of difference.
I'm sure you already read my post about church. As I said there's no hanky-panky going on there. We all enjoy philosophical conversation with each other and more mundane doings such as - who brought the treats for coffee hour today?? After church we all go our separate ways.
I'm not exactly sure what's available in Europe these days. My best friend and her husband have been going there for three years now and have done alot of sight seeing and eating in wonderful restaurants.
I do take public transportation everyday and that's not segregated either. No problems except for the occasional drunk in the evenings.
Merigen |
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Merigen
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Joined: 26 May 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 52 |
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Posted: 16 June 2008 at 6:19pm |
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Nur,
I wonder why you quoted these, yet you avoid these facts.
Islam teaches that a man�s desire/passion/lust starts from the eyes. Men gets easily aroused sexually when seeing a woman especially if the women bare themselves. Some men gets excited sexually when seeing a woman�s hair, some eye the neck, some love the figure and the bum while most men love to ogle a woman�s boobs. On the other hand, a woman�s desire/passion/lust starts from the touch. In order for men to increase the sexual drive of a woman, the first thing that they do is caressing the bare skin. I am not avoiding the above. It's just that I think much of it is very silly. Men have the ability to inhibit their actions and they should. By making them such pathetic babies, you are denying them the opportunity to show they can or should behave properly. No bowing goes on but there is a fair amount of standing and singing. The prophets even in your bible prostrate to God when they do their prayers, but not Christians nowadays. This confirms that Christians contradicts the teachings of Bible teachings. Why would this bother you? You think the Bible is corrupted anyway.
I would venture a guess that what you call Islamic teachings are actually some hadith handed down by some guy who was totally preoccupied by sex and puritanical at the same time. = There speaks an ignorant person. I will repeat again here - Adeenul 'Aql - Religion is intellect. So feed your intellect with knowledge than you will be enlightened.
The above is my personal opinion. From what I see and read, why would you expect anything different? I worked once with a very nice Muslim man. We spoke one day about he and his wife returning to their native land of Pakistan for a visit. He mentioned that she would be wearing hijab during the visit. He laughed when I interjected that it seemed that the purpose of the clothing was due to men being weak. He laughed and said, "yes we are very weak."
Merigen
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Israfil wrote: