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dzkouns
 
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Quote dzkouns Replybullet Topic: Is the Injeel corrupted?
    Posted: 23 April 2008 at 10:31am
Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Rahim (I believe this as a Christian, for sure
 
I am studying Islam in school and have had a hard time figuring out some of the beliefs that Muslims have about the Injeel.

1. Was the Injeel corrupted when Mohammed lived?

2. Who corrupted it and how/why?

3.Has anyone read it? (The Qur'an commands that one read the Injeel, the Tawrat, and the Zabur!)  If so, how did it match with the Qur'an?

Not trying to convert anybody here, but I haven't understood how these answers play out in Muslim thinking.  Thanks.
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:59pm
Hello and welcome,
a Muslim's believe about Injeel or Gospel is very clear, it is our individual level  of knowledge, understanding, and explaining that may describe it differently.
My understanding of Injeel, according to the teachings of Quran, is very clear. Injeel or Gospel was the word of God given to prophet Jesus (Pbuh) to bring people back to the worship of their Creator. It came at a time when previously sent word of God was not practiced and was also altered.
Through Quran we learn that Gospel or Injeel was altered and God's word was changed.
Thus there was a need for pure word of God again, and God chose a prophet and revealed His word, the Quran onto him.
 
So, to answer your specific questions:
1- yes, because if it was pure then, there would not have been any need for a new message.
 
2- Church, I would guess since it was not accessable to the common believer. Those who were incharge of its keeping I guess were responsible for such act. The fact is that it went through many revisions, compilations, additions and substractions throughout its history.
3- I am not aware of Quran commanding us to read those books. However, as a believer in submission to One God, as a Muslim we do believe that Torah and Gospel were word fo God sent to the prophets before. Anyone who does not believe that is not a Muslim.
I had a chance to read "the Bible" as we now know it.  For me it confirmed the Quran's claim.
I do not know what you mean by "how did it match with the Quran".
If I understand your question as if they both are same? no, I find Quran to stand firm on its teachings, as it is pure word of God. For example if it teaches Oneness of God, there is nothing in it to contradict it. If it talks about how the salvation be achieved, there is no contradiction in it. About status of Jesus (pbuh) it is clear. It says, he was born of virgin Mary of a miracle, for God that is easy.
He was a man, a true prophet. There is nothing in Quran that contradict that.
These are some of the very important points, on which, in my experience Chrisitians and the Bible contradict.
I hope I answered your questions, should you have any more, or want further clearification, do not hesitate to write.
 
Hasan
 
 


Edited by honeto - 23 April 2008 at 5:29pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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dzkouns
 
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Quote dzkouns Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2008 at 4:22pm

I greatly appreciate your well considered response.  I have a few more questions concerning this topic.

1.  Would you consider the original form of the New Testament as Injeel or just 1-4 of the Gospels? Or is it that the message God gave Jesus was never in the first compiled New Testament?

2.  You stated that the Church corrupted the Injeel since it wasn't available to the common believer, but what about the earliest manuscripts that were found that match the manuscripts we've had for centuries?  For example, the Qumran scrolls validated that our Old Testament scrolls were accurate.  We are always finding new scrolls that validate the New Testament.  In fact, we have over 10,000 manuscripts for the New Testament alone and all of them match (except for maybe a missing accent here or a mispelled word there). 

3. Has the Church been corrupting ALL of these manuscripts even as early as 20 years after Christ's ascension?  I don't mean to be argumentative or offensive, but history hasn't even granted the Qur'an that kind of evidence.
 
4

Originally posted by honeto

About status of Jesus (pbuh) it is clear. It says, he was born of virgin Mary of a miracle, for God that is easy.


We also believe that He was born of a virgin, but we believe that He wa the God incarnate, the Son of God.  I know this is a stumbling block for Muslims, but we don't actually believe that God had Mary as a wife.  We believe that God took the form of Jesus.  If it so easy to accept the idea that Jesus was born of a virgin, why would it be any harder to believe that God could take the form of man and reside with man?  If God is so merciful, wouldn't it be the ultimate act of mercy to humble Himself to save us from Hell?

Once again, not trying to convert anyone, but these are questions that I have had concerning Islam.  Thanks.

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Quote dzkouns Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2008 at 4:33pm
Also, we agree that God knows all, so why would He even bother giving Isa if He knew that it was going to be corrupted?  If God is as powerful as we both believe He is, how can His Word be corrupted?  Wouldn't it be as blasphemous to Muslims if I were to say that the Quran was corrupted?  If it is all the Word of God, how can any of it be corrupted?
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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2008 at 8:12pm
honeto said - Through Quran we learn that Gospel or Injeel was altered and God's word was changed.
Thus there was a need for pure word of God again, and God chose a prophet and revealed His word, the Quran onto him.
 
Which verse?
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Quote relaxjack Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2008 at 11:44pm
The Quran does not say that the Injeel or the Taurat was corrupted. The Quran does not also say that what the Jews and Christians have are the Taurat or Injeel.
 
What the Quran says is that some people took the message of the old scriptures, add their own words and stories to it, and claim that the new book is from God.
 
Notwithstanding that, Muslims believe the bible contain the core message of the taurat and injeel (believe in One God) and the bible contain stories that are inaccurate.
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 24 April 2008 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by dzkouns

I greatly appreciate your well considered response.  I have a few more questions concerning this topic.

1.  Would you consider the original form of the New Testament as Injeel or just 1-4 of the Gospels? Or is it that the message God gave Jesus was never in the first compiled New Testament?

2.  You stated that the Church corrupted the Injeel since it wasn't available to the common believer, but what about the earliest manuscripts that were found that match the manuscripts we've had for centuries?  For example, the Qumran scrolls validated that our Old Testament scrolls were accurate.  We are always finding new scrolls that validate the New Testament.  In fact, we have over 10,000 manuscripts for the New Testament alone and all of them match (except for maybe a missing accent here or a mispelled word there). 

3. Has the Church been corrupting ALL of these manuscripts even as early as 20 years after Christ's ascension?  I don't mean to be argumentative or offensive, but history hasn't even granted the Qur'an that kind of evidence.
 
4

Originally posted by honeto

About status of Jesus (pbuh) it is clear. It says, he was born of virgin Mary of a miracle, for God that is easy.


We also believe that He was born of a virgin, but we believe that He wa the God incarnate, the Son of God.  I know this is a stumbling block for Muslims, but we don't actually believe that God had Mary as a wife.  We believe that God took the form of Jesus.  If it so easy to accept the idea that Jesus was born of a virgin, why would it be any harder to believe that God could take the form of man and reside with man?  If God is so merciful, wouldn't it be the ultimate act of mercy to humble Himself to save us from Hell?

Once again, not trying to convert anyone, but these are questions that I have had concerning Islam.  Thanks.

 
Hi,
1- what I have said is that Injeel was Injeel in its original form, until God's word was not altered. after it went through transformation, it is accoding to so and so. The Bible went through many revisions throughout its history. I beleive that Word of God need no revision. In my understanding four versions of the Gospel of Jesus made to the current compilation, according to John, Matthew, Paul and Luke. There were other Gospels that were left out because they differed too much and did not agree with the doctrine preached by the Church. Some noticable variations are enough poof for me to believe that they do not speak the truth otherwise they would not differ on account. And that's a fact that tells us that somthing went wrong along the way.
 
2- In fact if they were that accurate and complete, they would be on the library shelves and book stores and churches. Why are they kept away. If they existed complete and unaltered they rightfully be called the true Gospel.
 
3- Look the poof is in the pudding, you don't need to take my word for it. Read the history and revisions of the Bible. No holy book went through so many organised revisions as the Bible.
And I, who is not a scholar, but a firm believer in truth has discovered enough inconsistancies through my own examination of the book that confirms for me that it has suffered in the hands of man. 
The Quran, after its compilation never went through a revision to this day. And exists in the same language it was revealed, written and compiled.
 
4- You contradict here, but I know you don't see that. Let me explain what I mean by that. First you said, "son of God", then you said, "God took form of Jesus".
Do you see your contradiction here?
 
Also, for Muslim God does not have, son, just as He does not have a mother, father, a daughter or a son-in-law. Its not God if it has any of those. God is One. You wonder "why would it be any harder to believe that God could take the form of man and reside with man"
Why for you would be hard that God take form of an elephant or a monkey, as a Hindu believes,  or anything imaginable, why not?
It's not about what He is capable of doing, Nothing is beyond His reach. It is about what He is and what He is not. God is not a white or blue man, God does not take over body of a man, monkey or elephant. Those are man's utterances or ideas.  
You said, "If God is so merciful, wouldn't it be the ultimate act of mercy to humble Himself to save us from Hell?
God is Merciful, and it is only though His Mercy and Love that He has sent guidence to all his prophets for their people in their respective times. Those who live by His command sent for their time will be successful in this life and in the Hereafter, and the fire will not touch them, and they will be in the gardens of Paradise.
 
It is He who is God in Heavens and on Earth; And He is full of Wisdom and Knwledge.  (Quran 43:84)
 
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 24 April 2008 at 3:29pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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dzkouns
 
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Quote dzkouns Replybullet Posted: 24 April 2008 at 5:01pm
The Bible went through many revisions throughout its history
No, the Bible went through many translations to help believers understand the message.  I know that this is a stumbling block for Muslims because a translation of the Quran is considered more of an interpretation than a translation and that's why I think it is a shame that more Christians don't at least attempt to learn Greek and Hebrew.
In fact if they were that accurate and complete, they would be on the library shelves and book stores and churches. Why are they kept away. If they existed complete and unaltered they rightfully be called the true Gospel.
Actually, I have two copies of the New Testament and a copy of the Old Testament in the original languages.  I bought one at a bookstore around the corner, one at school, and I was given the Old Testament in Hebrew by my cousin.  These texts are based on the most accurate manuscripts available today and are widely available.
Some noticable variations are enough poof for me to believe that they do not speak the truth otherwise they would not differ on account.
The core truth is there.  If we all witness an car wreck, but vary on the minor details when giving an account to the police, no one assumes that the car wreck didn't happen because we can't agree on minor details.  Maybe I said the truck was maroon and you say it is dark red.  The truck is still there.  We don't view the Bible as being descended from Heaven as you view the Quran.  God used men to share His message just like you believe happened with Mohammed.  These men wrote this message with guidance from the Holy Spirit, but these men weren't perfect.  Some of them had bad grammar, some of them forgot a couple of accents, some of them told accounts in a different order, but just like varying accounts at the scene of a wreck, it doesn't mean they were lying.  Do you know Arabic?  Do you read the Quran in Arabic? If yes, great.  But I know that 80% of Muslims rely on "interpretations" and I am willing to bet these "interpretations" have through revisions and may vary on language (some may sound archaic and some more modern).  Are you just as quick to dismiss these interpretations?
 
God would not take the form of an elephant because He isn't seeking a personal relationship through redemption with elephants.  God created Adam to worship.  Adam sinned and cursed us all.  We are born with sin which seperates us from worship and fellowship with God.  So, He elected to humble Himself and take on the punishment for sin which is a blood sacrifice.  He gave the ultimate sacrifice, Himself.  With regards to language like "Son of God" it is referring to His human nature which is intertwined with the Divine nature.  This is a difficult concept for Christians and I can't really go into it (I'm sure Islam has equally difficult doctrines that you struggle to explain), but the point of this was to identify Himself with our situation and provide an example for how we are to live and die, as a worshipful sacrifice.  God showed us that law does not redeem, but only through mercy and grace can one be in fellowship with Him.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands- remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." Ephesians 2:8-22


Edited by dzkouns - 24 April 2008 at 5:02pm
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