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Seems like a false statement. Please explain. |
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Shasta'sAunt 
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 Posted: 28 April 2008 at 5:08pm |
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"Actions are not independent of God therefore they are dependent upon potentialities"
I did not say that our actions are independent of God, did I? Nothing can be independent of God because we are all acting within a sphere of God's creation and cannot act out of that sphere. Nor can we act beyond the limits of the order established by God.
However, God willed that we should be free to make our own decisions within the sphere and limits of His creation and that we should be held responsible for those decisions.
"God's prior knowledge of our actions does nopt necessitate that we actually are free. If God knows I'm going to Hell, the choicesd I make on earth are thus fulfilling what God already knows."
What is your point here? That because God knows, you are somehow not free to make your own choices? How does God's knowledge preclude you from making a choice? YOU still have to make that choice.
God gave us free will and has told us He will judge us upon our actions.
An-Nahl (The Bee)
16:93 If Allah so willed, He could make you all one people: But He leaves straying whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases: but ye shall certainly be called to account for all your actions. Al-Insan (Man)
76:3 We showed him the Way: whether he be grateful or ungrateful (rests on his will). Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 28 April 2008 at 7:04pm |
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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt |
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Shasta'sAunt
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Female Joined: 29 March 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1930 |
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Posted: 28 April 2008 at 7:02pm |
1 a: foreordain, predestine b: to determine beforehand
2: to impose a direction or tendency on beforehand (Merriam-Webster)
Allah is not determining nor is He imposing a direction beforehand. Allah knows what you will choose, but He is not determing that choice for you, nor is He imposing a choice upon you. Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 28 April 2008 at 7:05pm |
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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt |
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Israfil
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Joined: 08 September 2003 Status: Offline Points: 3984 |
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Posted: 28 April 2008 at 11:27pm |
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S.A. you said:
>>>Allah is not determining nor is He imposing a direction beforehand. Allah knows what you will choose, but He is not determing that choice for you, nor is He imposing a choice upon you. <<<<
It doesn't matter if God didn't determine my actions, what matters is God knows! If we believe god is All-Knowing that means his knowledge encompasses past, present and future all at once. If the future has not happened yet here, it has already happened in God's mind. God knows the sequence of events in the future and although he is "allowing" us to fulfill these actions on our own will so to speak, our actions have already been finalized in the future in God's mind. In other words, since God knows I'll sin at 10:00am even though he is letting me continue in my behavior until that time, he still knows what the end result of my actions even before I complete it before 10am.
Because God knows my future I am not free. Whether I got to hell or heaven my life has already been set in God's mind. Since God does not change within himself, it is impossible to necessitate that I'm free to change my life.
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Shasta'sAunt
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Posted: 28 April 2008 at 11:39pm |
You are assuming that God's mind is like our mind. We do not know this, nor can we assume how God perceives time: past, present or future. What is the future to you may not be so to God.
Besides, I still do not see how God knowing negates your act of choosing. YOU still have to choose, even if it is only in your own mind. You have to make that choice, good or bad, right or wrong, evil or rightousness.
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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt |
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Shasta'sAunt
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Posted: 29 April 2008 at 12:05am |
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Ar-Ra'd (The Thunder)
13:11 For each (such person) there are (angels) in succession, before and behind him: They guard him by command of Allah. Verily never will Allah change the condition of a people until they change it themselves (with their own souls). But when (once) Allah willeth a people's punishment, there can be no turning it back, nor will they find, besides Him, any to protect. Al-Kahf (The Cave) 18:29 Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on! Ash-Shura (The Consultation) 42:30 Whatever misfortune happens to you, is because on the things your hands have wrought, and for many (of them) He grants forgiveness. |
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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt |
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Israfil
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Posted: 29 April 2008 at 9:41am |
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"You are assuming that God's mind is like our mind."
This statement negates the assertion that God is "All-Knowing" because all knowing is a humanly conceivable trait. S.A. apparently it's difficult for you to get my simple statement...obviously.....I don't see how you don't get it but oh well.
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Shasta'sAunt
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Posted: 29 April 2008 at 1:57pm |
IS:
Allah has described His attributes to us in a way that our human minds can comprehend. That does not mean that He is in any way limited to our human comprehension.
I am not really too worried about getting your statement. I am much more concerned with getting Allah's. Since Allah has stated that we have free will and we will be judged accordingly, this conversation is negligible. It is not my responsibility to try to force you to believe, YOU must CHOOSE to believe.....
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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt |
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Ron Webb
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Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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Posted: 29 April 2008 at 4:36pm |
I don't think anyone is saying that we do not have free will. What we are saying is that it is logically impossible to believe that we have free will, and also that Allah knows in advance what we will choose. One or the other is possible, but not both.
Omniscient doesn't literally mean all-knowing, any more than omnipotent means all-powerful. It is impossible for Allah to build a fortress so strong that not even He can breach it, for instance. (Or if that is possible, then it is impossible for Allah to breach such a fortress. Take your pick.) In the same way, it is impossible for Allah to know the choices made by creatures whom He has given free will.
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Israfil wrote: