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Seems like a false statement. Please explain.
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Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

It it is predetermined, then it is not a choice.  The only way God could know what I will "choose" is if he has designed me in such a way, and exposed me to such external influences which have developed my character in such a way, that in a given situation there is only one possible "choice" that I can make.
 
But that's not a choice; at best it's only an illusion of choice.  The choice was actually made by God, when He designed me or exposed me to those external factors which determined my choice.  I have no more free will than an actor, cast in a role in a cosmic play whose script was written by God.
 
If you believe that then there is nothing I can say that will change your mind. 
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 April 2008 at 7:30pm
Ermm Of course I don't believe that.  I'm making a reductio ad absurdum argument.  The assumption that God knows in advance everything that I will do leads inevitably to the (absurd) conclusion that I have no free will.
 
In a nutshell: either I make the choice, or God made the choice when He made me (and/or the universe).  You can't have it both ways.
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ejdavid3 View Drop Down
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Well, Well, Well. The final judgement. According to some Roman Catholics, at the end of times those in heaven will be shown those in hell and asked if those in hell should be forgiven.

The obvious answer is yes, of course. The church does not like to explore this subject much in public, because it could lead to some, well, missunderstanding of sin.

Still, I find it the best of all possible conclussions.
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ejdavid3 View Drop Down
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Ron

I have spent the last decade or two exploring the possible confluence of Quantum Mechanics (Hiesnbergs Uncertainty Principle for instance), and find a very large opening for free will. Recently, The Standard Model, String Theory, and M theory pretty much open the way not only for eternal life, but even RESURECTED life. As if it were simple childs play.

After all, every photon and every particle in the universe affects all the others. In addition, Quantum Mechanics is STILL supporting that the laws of thermodynamics etc, do not permit the loss of any information, even in a black hole.

Well! The more robust expansions of M theory postulate all this is coordinated by a specific number of OTHER dimensions. I think the agreed upon number is either 9 or 11, but no matter.

Actual science is very near the point of no return. First, whatever word you wish to use for God is insufficent to accomodate the actual science. Second, thirty years of SETI, and refinements in the Drake Equation are becoming irrisistable. We may very well be the only techonological life that has ever existed in this Universe. I find that a curious possibility, but the science over the last several decades has moved inexorably in that direction.

I will discuss the Drake Equation with anyone who knows the original predicted 47 technological civilization in the milky way galaxly at this time. You will NOT believe the number of zeroes (the power of 10) that have been revealed since then.
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Originally posted by ejdavid3 ejdavid3 wrote:

I have spent the last decade or two exploring the possible confluence of Quantum Mechanics (Hiesnbergs Uncertainty Principle for instance), and find a very large opening for free will.

Yes, I agree.  The point I was making is that is that if we have free will, then our actions are not predetermined; and that means that no one, not even God, knows what choices we will make.
 
To put it another way, if God knew when He created us exactly what we would do and what sins we would commit, then surely He should at least share the blame.  It was His choice to make us the way we are.
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Israfil View Drop Down
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Shausta's Aunt you said:

I am implying that God has knowledge of your existence and what paths you will choose in your lifetime. YOU still have to make those choices. 
 
If you come to a fork in the road and have to go left or right God will know which direction you will choose, but you still have to make that choice.  It is still completely up to you.
 
I think the problem you are having here is the concept of God being All-Knowing. 
 
 
My post is in bold
 
This is a terrible explanation  by you.....
 
If God knows I will sin at 10:00am how am I ultimately  free? This pre-determinist problem has staunched many and don't think you can explain it very well on IslamiCity. Of course God may not cause someone to sin at 10:00am how we can also say that by God not acting upon intervening we can also say that by God's own laws God is not free himself to intervene because it violates so-called free-will. By God knowing our choices does not necessarily mean that our choices are free once we act upon them. In God's mind our actions have already been actualized in the future (e.g. since God knows the future before it actually happens in our time).
 
So here are the problems with freewill
 
1) God knows I will sin at 10:00am
 
2) God knows I will sin at 10:00am but will not intervene
 
We can say God is all-knowing all we want but if God knows prior to action that one will sin then the actions that I do in actuality are thus fulfilling what has transpired in God's mind already. In otherwords although its 8:00am 2 hours from now, God knows that I will sin at 10:00am and thus my actions up until that point are just fulfilling what God already knew.
 
Actions are not independent of God therefore they are dependent upon potentialities (e.g. things such as experiences are set up for us that allows us to act) which come from other previous actions (yes this is quite philosophical of me!). If God intervenes he knew in his mind that at 10:00am he would prevent me from sinning, but even with this in mind I could say God violated my freewill to sin. Of course we could go on and on about this but more importantly what I wanted to comment on what Shausta's comment which was totally false.
 
God's prior knowledge of our actions does nopt necessitate that we actually are free. If God knows I'm going to Hell, the choicesd I make on earth are thus fulfilling what God already knows. I hope this sounds clear.
 
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

God's prior knowledge of our actions does nopt necessitate that we actually are free.  
We're on the same page, Israfil, but I would say the converse: God's prior knowledge of our actions would necessitate that we are not actually free.  Further, if God knows about a crime in advance, and is (of course) able to stop it but does nothing, then IMHO that would make Him an accessory to that crime.
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Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
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"Of course we could go on and on about this but more importantly what I wanted to comment on what Shausta's comment which was totally false."
 
 
Israfil:
 
I'm not sure what part you find false, that Allah is All-Knowing or that Allah gave us free will?
 
Allah is AL-ALIM: The All-Knowing.   ALL KNOWING.  Past, present, future...... 
 
AL-KHABIR: The All-Aware. ALL AWARE. Aware of everything, everywhere.
 
AL-BASIR: The All-Seeing.  ALL SEEING.
 
AS-SAMI: The All-Hearing. ALL HEARING.
 
Allah also states:
 
Al-Baqara (The Cow)

2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

The only compulsion that Allah has put upon man was creating man with free will.   Thus we are compelled to choose, but WE make the choice.
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 28 April 2008 at 6:52pm
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
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