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Seems like a false statement. Please explain.
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Israfil View Drop Down
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I will respond shortly
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Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
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"Since it is indeed proven to be innate and not choice, "
 
This has not been proven. In fact, Rice, Risch, and Ebers all concluded that the X-linkage theory put forth by Hamer could not be proven and their studies in fact found the opposite.  Since these studies have been the most progressive using human genetyping, there is absolutely no evidence that homosexuality is innate.
 
 
 
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

IS:
This is from the article link that you posted to refudiate what I have been saying. Sound familiar???   Thank you for pasting a link to an artcle that backs up everything that I have said, almost verbatim.   
 
 
"From an Islamic point of view, human beings are free for all practical purposes. A person has no excuse for making the wrong choice and then blaming qadar or destiny, any more than a man punching his fist into a wall can blame the laws of nature. He knew the consequences of his actions for all practical purposes and he shouldn�t expect a miracle!

We should not worry about what Allah has written for us, since we can never know it. But our duty is to strive for the best in this world and the next. Then, good results will follow, if Allah wills.

As for the question of whether humans are predestined to enter Paradise or Hell, we must remember that Allah transcends the limits of time. He is All-Knowing of the past, present and future. Thus He knows in advance which path � good or evil � each individual will choose and what will be his or her final destination � Paradise or Hell. But such knowledge does not mean that He makes each person choose a certain path."
 
The above is not MY argument. Once again, this is an excerpt of the article link that YOU posted to repudiate my argument. So now, you are arguing against the article that you quoted to repudiate my original argument....
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
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peacemaker View Drop Down
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Everyone,
 
It is very important to comply with guidelines. And in religious matters, you must bring evidence to confirm your statements, please. 
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13
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Israfil View Drop Down
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Firs toff in the last part of your previous comment what does homosexuality have to do with anything? I've clearly stated in the other thread that it is not a matter of choice, if you want to argue your point there then do so but I found the end part of you rcomment not relevant here...
 
As far as the daleel you are looking for I don't have time to look up word for word to refute your point.
 
Ithe major fallacies I see in your argument is saying god is All-knowing yet state he transcends our knowledge of him. this doesn't make sense because it is obvious we comprehend what "All-knowing" is yet in the same context you say we don't know what All-knowing is because it is not our definition. It is either he is All-knowing in the context we understand or not.
 
If God is All-knowing and knows past, present, and future and knows our destination before we do it is PROBLEMATIC on will. This doesn't take into account the biological, environmental and other external limitations God has set for us, but the metaphysical is definitely important here. Like I said, free action is action without limitation (which means independent of any external forces) and if God already knows I will sin at 10:00am I am only fulfilling in our world, what God knows. I have repeated this several times
 
You ask How does God knowing necessitate our lack of Freewill.....
 
If God is the designer of the universe he knows when, why, and how it will operate. Prior to the universe's existence he knew he would create a universe and knew its qualities and knew that in this solar system Earth would be the destination in which he would show life forms his wonderous works. God's foreknowledge of events itself have determined what will be. He knows who will be in heaven and hell before it actually happens in our 'time' so regardless of what I do on this earth God already knows my destination.
 
Many scholars say well only sincere prayer can mediate what happens in the future is also fallacious because that means God's mind can change when it is law which is also problematic for doctrinal faiths. The reason being is because we can say that God's laws are not concrete but can be subject to change as God wills and if this is true then there is no concrete standard of divine law since, ultimately, it is up to God. Personally I find the latter to be true.
 
I don't think i personally choose something if God already knows what the effect is. True, God may not personally act upon my behalf but the fact that god knows the end result means I've already perform the action in God's mind so how are my actions Free? I'm still limited by God knowing them because of his knowledge. In addition to this problem is intervention.
 
since you brought up homsexuality let's look at it this way. Since it is indeed proven to be innate and not choice, much like heterosexuality, if god finds homsexuality to be a sin why not intervene and stop this innate feeling? Or why even design it? It doesn't seem smart for a deity to create what he hates and then commands people to stop this 'innate' feeling. So if it is not choice and if god cares and loves us why not violate his own law of so-called freewill and intervene? Either way there is no freedom so by God intervening it wouldn't make a difference. So many questions.
 
 


Edited by Israfil - 05 May 2008 at 9:54am
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BMZ - Let's start another thread on this. I feel like we would be getting in the middle of another discussion then were the others are going.
 
 
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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IS:
This is from the article link that you posted to refudiate what I have been saying. Sound familiar???   Thank you for pasting a link to an artcle that backs up everything that I have said, almost verbatim.   
 
 
"From an Islamic point of view, human beings are free for all practical purposes. A person has no excuse for making the wrong choice and then blaming qadar or destiny, any more than a man punching his fist into a wall can blame the laws of nature. He knew the consequences of his actions for all practical purposes and he shouldn�t expect a miracle!

We should not worry about what Allah has written for us, since we can never know it. But our duty is to strive for the best in this world and the next. Then, good results will follow, if Allah wills.

As for the question of whether humans are predestined to enter Paradise or Hell, we must remember that Allah transcends the limits of time. He is All-Knowing of the past, present and future. Thus He knows in advance which path � good or evil � each individual will choose and what will be his or her final destination � Paradise or Hell. But such knowledge does not mean that He makes each person choose a certain path."
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Going down the list of responses.

So, you are repudiating the Word of Allah? Which Islamic theology have you studied that would allow you to do so, and please bring forth the daleel(proof) of what you are saying.
 
Who is sounding like the psuedo-intellectual here? I wouldn't even qualify you as an interpreter of Quranic text let alone can actually disprove what I am saying. I gave you several points of why we do not have freewill which you have yet to refute. I do not follow any school of thought or any fiqh if you were wondering.
 
Did you mean dialogical or dialectical?  I'm afraid I don't recognise dialetical.
 
Dialetical is a philosophical term which means to make an arguement without concrete demonstration. Quoting the Qur'an is not demonstrative proof unless you interpret into a framework which is demonstrative. This means not quote something verbatum and then say you have refuted my position. That is dialetical.
 
You do not have to interpret God's Word, He has made it quite clear that man has free will and will be judged accordingly.
 
Obviously there things in God's word that aren't clear. For instance many schoalrs interpret several spheres of action which designates man's ability to act.
 
The concept of qadar used in the Qur�an means a measure or the latent possibilities with which Allah (God) created human beings and all things of nature.....
 
If God created "possibilities" for us then he creates those limited possibilities to which man can act, therefore our actions are NOT determined but are limited hence are not free. Freedom does not mean the will to act in one instance and not another, but to act however and whenever.
 
If Allah says believe I am ONE and I will reward you and NOT believe in me as One I will punish you is (if choice is made) not an independent choice but contingent upon the possible penalty of suffering in Hell or lounging in paradise. If I choose to believe in God solely because I'm afraid of Hell I am not making an independent choice but a choice based upon the hereafter. Again S.A. Your proofs fail. Not by the Qur'an but your inability to interpret the Qur'an.
 
But you are still choosing, whatever your reasoning. If you don't grasp that not so subtle point at this juncture then you probably never will.
 
Yes. there are things in God's Word that are not clear and God points them out saying that man will never know the meaning of these things. However, judgement based upon our choices is not one of these things. This is a recurrent theme common among all of God's Messengers, Prophets, and Sacred Texts. It honestly can't get much clearer. 
 
I think you mean dialectical not dialetical....

dialectical

< name=entry =/dictionary method=post>2 entries found.

< =:.entry.submit() size=2 name=jump> < ed>dialectical<>dialectical materialism


Main Entry:
di�a�lec�ti�cal Listen%20to%20the%20pronunciation%20of%20dialectical
Pronunciation:
\ˌdī-ə-ˈlek-ti-kəl\
Variant(s):
also di�a�lec�tic Listen%20to%20the%20pronunciation%20of%20dialectic \-tik\
Function:
adjective
Date:
1548
1 a: of, relating to, or in accordance with dialectic <dialectical method> b: practicing, devoted to, or employing dialectic <a dialectical philosopher>2: of, relating to, or characteristic of a dialect
� di�a�lec�ti�cal�ly Listen%20to%20the%20pronunciation%20of%20dialectically \-ti-k(ə-)lē\ adverb
 
Gee, I remember stating in my earlier post that we act within a sphere of God's creation and are limited to God's Laws within that creation. You are just taking my words and changing them up. Not extremely original.  You have yet to bring the daleel that we do not have free will to choose right from wrong, to believe or disbelieve.  I do not have to refute you musings. Allah has said that we have the ability to choose and He will judge us accordingly. The fact that you continue to argue against this makes me question your sincerity.  There is a point beyond which one goes from questioning something because they truly do not understand to almost mocking the belief. 
 
This MIGHT help you.....
 
As for qualifying to interpret Quran, most concepts in the Quran are so simple a child can understand. It was revealed as a guidance and mercy for ALL of mankind, those with a simple intellect and those who are a tad sharper. You might actually learn something from reading the Quran in it's simplicity. The ability to choose right from wrong,  those things which Allah has made clear with clear signs and warnings, the Islamic perspective on homosexuality..... 
 
 
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
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