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honeto View Drop Down
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    Posted: 05 May 2008 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by jusaskin jusaskin wrote:

Hasan,
 
I know you are sincere in your belief, and desire to help others see things the way you do .... believing it to be the only true way. But the one thing you are unable to do is to understand what you read in the Christian Bible.
 
I completely understand your logic. The Bible seems to contradict itself in many places, but that's because you read it with an Islamic filter. Even without that filter you can miss the real messages without the very attitude you recommended to me in a different post ... "with open eyes,mind and heart".
 
You cannot hear Jesus as man, Prophet, Son of God, Redeemer, Messiah, the firstborn of a new generation, etc. because you can only hear Him as He is presented in the Quran. You don't understand that He can say that God is His God when He speaks as an ordinary human being on earth (which He was), and then later speak of Himself as mankind's Redeemer, or accept worship from others, of do/say the many things that show Him to be God's Son. He speaks as the ONLY begotten Son, but you don't know how to rightly understand what that means because the Quran rejects it.
 
We could dispute these things forever, but you will not convince me, nor will I convince you. The fundamental difference we have is our sincere belief in our own Scripture; likewise I believe we have a fundamental commonality .... our love for God. Only God can judge our soul, and I am content to leave it up to Him. I trust one day (if that be the right term) that we will meet in the hereafter and God will have shown us how and why we differed. Until then .... peace to you!
 
Hi Joe,
good to see that you are back. And peace be with you too.
I must say that it is our duty to varify and sort out things here. Because it will be too late later. 
I would like to correct you that I did not read the Bible through an Islamic filter. I will not be truthful to myself if I did that. Years ago when I started looking into it. I was shocked to see the same messege that I knew in Islam (at that time I was not a learned believer) but then I could see passages that could not go along the rest neither the logic. I had more respect for it  before I knew it. Now as the truth of its contents have exposed to me I cannot say the same now.
One thing further if I may say, never have God came as a incarnation(s) on the earth, in a man or various forms but only according to the Pagans.
 
Hasan
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Originally posted by jusaskin jusaskin wrote:

A few questions please, since I have read and heard different opinions on the following:

1.Is it correct to say that each word in the Quran was told to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel, who received the words from God? And that Muhammad received these message at different times, and being illiterate, he passed them on to someone who could write?

That is correct.
 
Originally posted by jusaskin jusaskin wrote:

2. Is the Quran compiled according to some particular order? If the order is not according to when it was received, has this order ever been determined .... in other words, is there an index according to when the verses were received?
There is a hadith from Ibn Abu Dawud which says
 
Uthman replied: When the verses of the Qur'an were revealed to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him), he called someone to write them down for him and said to him: Put this verse in the surah in which such and such has been mentioned; and when one or two verses were revealed, he used to say similarly (regarding them).
 
The above indicates the order of the Quran was determined during the Prophet's lifetime.
 
Originally posted by jusaskin jusaskin wrote:

3. How is the Quran supposed to be read as relating to the existing scriptures of the Jews and Christians? Does the Quran supersede, amend or in some other manner link itself to those writings? Where can this be found in the Quran?

The Quran is the continuation and final revelation given to earlier prophets. The Quran says it is the Furqan (the Criterion) between Truth and Falsehood. As such, Muslims use the Quran to distinguish what is true in the bible and what is not true written in the bible.
 
To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; (Surah Al-Maedah 5:48)
Originally posted by jusaskin jusaskin wrote:

 
4. A question I asked in another post but have not received an answer .... what is meant by "the Book" and "people of the Book", in the Quran?
In the context of the Quran, 'People of the Book' refers to the Christians and the Jews who hold the bible. The bible is not the original Injeel and Taurat, but the essence of the earlier revelations can still be found in their scriptures. Muslims believe the bible contains Truth plus many writings which are not true. The Quran therefore is used as a Furqan to distinguish the Truth from the Error. 
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Theologians almost universally believe that the authors of the Gospels are unknown and that they were written after the death of Jesus. Most of the books of the New Testament are attributed to Paul, who never even met Jesus.
 
I could cut and paste alot of material to support what I say, but anyone who has studied the subject knows this to be true, and if not, then all you have to do is Google it...
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
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How do you know if a messanger is authentic? 
 
We know that the Gospels were written by the Disciples of Christ within their lifetime, but not Jesus'. 
 
Actually if you carefully study the Bible you would see that all supposed contradictions can be explained.
 
This is sort of reverse reasoning - What many people don't understand is that the people of the time believed that Jesus was acting and saying things that equated Himself with GOD.  If He was lying then He was not a good prophet.!!

The following dates are not always exact, but are very good estimates.

Old Testament
 
Book

Author

Date Written

Genesis Moses ? - 1445 B.C.
Exodus Moses 1445 - 1405 B.C.
Leviticus Moses 1405 B.C.
Numbers Moses 1444 - 1405 B.C.
Deuteronomy Moses 1405 B.C.
Joshua Joshua 1404-1390 B.C.
Judges Samuel 1374-1129 B.C.
Ruth Samuel 1150? B.C.
First Samuel Samuel 1043-1011 B.C.
Second Samuel Ezra? 1011-1004 B.C.
First Kings Jeremiah? 971-852 B.C.
Second Kings Jeremiah? 852-587 B.C.
First Chronicles Ezra? 450 - 425 B.C.
Second Chronicles Ezra? 450 - 425 B.C.
Ezra Ezra 538-520 B.C.
Nehemiah Nehemiah 445 - 425 B.C.
Esther Mordecai? 465 B.C.
Job Job? ??
Psalms David 1000? B.C.

Sons of Korah wrote Psalms 42, 44-49, 84-85, 87; Asaph wrote Psalms 50, 73-83; Heman wrote Psalm 88; Ethan wrote Psalm 89; Hezekiah wrote Psalms 120-123, 128-130, 132, 134-136;
Solomon wrote Psalms 72, 127.

Proverbs Solomon wrote 1-29
Agur wrote 30
Lemuel wrote 31		 950 - 700 B.C.
Ecclesiastes Solomon 935 B.C.
Song of Solomon Solomon 965 B.C.
Isaiah Isaiah 740 - 680 B.C.
Jeremiah Jeremiah 627 - 585 B.C.
Lamentations Jeremiah 586 B.C.
Ezekiel Ezekiel 593-560 B.C.
Daniel Daniel 605-536 B.C.
Hosea Hosea 710 B.C.
Joel

Joel

835 B.C.
Amos

Amos

755 B.C.
Obadiah

Obadiah

840 or 586 B.C.
Jonah

Jonah

760 B.C.
Micah

Micah

700 B.C.
Nahum

Nahum

663 - 612 B.C.
Habakkuk

Habakkuk

607 B.C.
Zephaniah

Zephaniah

625 B.C.
Haggai

Haggai

520 B.C.
Zechariah

Zechariah

520 - 518 B.C.
Malachi

Malachi

450 - 600 B.C.



New Testament

Book

Author

Date Written (A.D)

Matthew Matthew 60's
Mark John Mark late 50's
early 60's
Luke Luke 60
John John late 80's
early 90's
Acts Luke 61
Romans Paul 55
1 Corinthians Paul 54
2 Corinthians Paul 55
Galatians Paul 49
Ephesians Paul 60
Philippians Paul 61
Colossians Paul 60
1 Thessalonians Paul 50 - 51
2 Thessalonians Paul 50 - 51
1 Timothy Paul 62
2 Timothy Paul 63
Titus Paul 62
Philemon Paul 60
Hebrews (Paul, Apollos, Barnabas...?) 60's
James James, half brother of Jesus 40's or 50's
1 Peter Peter 63
2 Peter Peter 63 - 64
1 John John late 80's
early 90's
2 John John late 80's
early 90's
3 John John late 80's
early 90's
Jude Jude, half brother of Jesus 60's or 70's
Revelation John late 80's
early 90's
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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"We have the situation in the Bible where nothing can be verified as "authentic" if we must produce a document that claims to be written by Jesus, and it seems that would be the only authenticity that would satisfy a Muslim. Christians are convinced that our Scripture is accurate enough to convey the intended message of God through Jesus, and I am puzzled by how a Muslim can differentiate between what is "authentic" in our Scripture, and what is not."

While the Prophet Mohammed did not personally write the Quran, he was unlettered, he was alive and personally conveyed the Word of God as he received it.
 
Muslims believe that the Bible, especially the New Testament, cannot be authenticated for a number of reasons. First, the authors of the Gospels are unknown. Second, the Gospels were written long after the death of Jesus.  Third, and most important, the Bible has numerous contradictions, the true Word of God would never contradict itself.  Even within the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, the purported story of the life of Jesus, God incarnate, there are contradictions.
 
It is not that Muslims demand a document written by Jesus, although if an authentic document where he claims to be God on earth could be produced that would be great and would solve a lot of problems, it is more that we cannot accept the inaccurate word of man as that of God.
 
 
 


Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 11 April 2008 at 7:20pm
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
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Hasan,
 
I know you are sincere in your belief, and desire to help others see things the way you do .... believing it to be the only true way. But the one thing you are unable to do is to understand what you read in the Christian Bible.
 
I completely understand your logic. The Bible seems to contradict itself in many places, but that's because you read it with an Islamic filter. Even without that filter you can miss the real messages without the very attitude you recommended to me in a different post ... "with open eyes,mind and heart".
 
You cannot hear Jesus as man, Prophet, Son of God, Redeemer, Messiah, the firstborn of a new generation, etc. because you can only hear Him as He is presented in the Quran. You don't understand that He can say that God is His God when He speaks as an ordinary human being on earth (which He was), and then later speak of Himself as mankind's Redeemer, or accept worship from others, of do/say the many things that show Him to be God's Son. He speaks as the ONLY begotten Son, but you don't know how to rightly understand what that means because the Quran rejects it.
 
We could dispute these things forever, but you will not convince me, nor will I convince you. The fundamental difference we have is our sincere belief in our own Scripture; likewise I believe we have a fundamental commonality .... our love for God. Only God can judge our soul, and I am content to leave it up to Him. I trust one day (if that be the right term) that we will meet in the hereafter and God will have shown us how and why we differed. Until then .... peace to you!
joe
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Originally posted by jusaskin jusaskin wrote:

Hasan,
 
There are some fundamantals upon which a belief is built, God and our salvation are the two most important ones for most of us. On both of those basic points Christians and the Bible failed to agree.
 
I regret that I do not understand the above quote. That "God" and "our salvation" are two fundamental beliefs, I get, but I'm not sure what you mean with the next sentence. Are you saying that Christians and the Bible disagree with each other, or disagree with Islam?
 
Perhaps an example would help.
 
Hi Joe,
what I mean is that in any religion those two points are the most important one:
One, how you define and believe who God is, and second: How you achieve salvation, to be successfull in this life and the hereafter.
I say that in my study and knowledge, Christians and the Bible disagree on those two points within themselves.
For example (as you asked for one): God, who God is, according to Christians I have talked to believe that Jesus is the only begotten son of God, the Bible contradicts that as God is quoted to have more begotten sons throughout the Bible. Then they say that Jesus is God, and through my study I find that Jesus infact has admitted to have a God. I heard they say that all three part of God (trinity) are equal in power, I find in the Bible Jesus admitting that God (father) is greater than him.
So many more, but this is enough to explain what I meant.
Take care,
Hasan
 
 


Edited by honeto - 11 April 2008 at 10:35am
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Hasan,
 
There are some fundamantals upon which a belief is built, God and our salvation are the two most important ones for most of us. On both of those basic points Christians and the Bible failed to agree.
 
I regret that I do not understand the above quote. That "God" and "our salvation" are two fundamental beliefs, I get, but I'm not sure what you mean with the next sentence. Are you saying that Christians and the Bible disagree with each other, or disagree with Islam?
 
Perhaps an example would help.
joe
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