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S. Korean hostages beaten for Christ

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Israfil View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Israfil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2007 at 1:18am

Tom123 funny how in response to me you use the word hatred and armed as if those are things that are common to me (or common in true Islamic practice). First off I do not hate them nor do I think what they did is wrong in the sense that their intention was purely humanitarian. HOWEVER, seeing how those areas are known to be run by the Taliban and seeing how the Taliban is hostile towards non-muslims I think common sense would take over here. If they cared about doing humanitarian work and making changes why not do humanitarian work through Muslim elements why put yourself in harm's way?

Islamispeace autonomy is not synonymous with right action. Just because "it is their choice" doesn't mean it was the right choice. Judging from your poor response would you say a suicidal person has the right to kill themselves and that, it is ok because they are an autonomous human being? I would suspect not. I think these missionaries were doing so-called humanitarian work but with intention of conversion. I have friends over seas serving and basically Christian missionaries basically set up bath houses but these places are only avaliable to people who are "saved" yes real godly people eh?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2007 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Tom123 funny how in response to me you use the word hatred and armed as if those are things that are common to me (or common in true Islamic practice). First off I do not hate them nor do I think what they did is wrong in the sense that their intention was purely humanitarian. HOWEVER, seeing how those areas are known to be run by the Taliban and seeing how the Taliban is hostile towards non-muslims I think common sense would take over here. If they cared about doing humanitarian work and making changes why not do humanitarian work through Muslim elements why put yourself in harm's way?

Islamispeace autonomy is not synonymous with right action. Just because "it is their choice" doesn't mean it was the right choice. Judging from your poor response would you say a suicidal person has the right to kill themselves and that, it is ok because they are an autonomous human being? I would suspect not. I think these missionaries were doing so-called humanitarian work but with intention of conversion. I have friends over seas serving and basically Christian missionaries basically set up bath houses but these places are only avaliable to people who are "saved" yes real godly people eh?



   Hi Israfil,

   I did not say that Islam is hateful, I said your words are hateful and contemptful towards these people. I am glad to hear that you do not hate them.

   The South Koreans went with a Christian group because they wanted to serve the poor of Afghanistan and they wanted to bring glory to Christ. No, not by prosyletizing but when we Christians help others we believe that by our actions we are bringing glory to God.

   I apologize for butting in your conversation with islamispeace, but can you provide me any proof whatsoever that the South Koreans were only helping Afghans who converted to Christianity?

   A question for you though, Israfil. Say a group of Muslims working for the charity Islamic Relief entered a non-Muslim area to help non-Muslims, and were targeted by an armed group who was opposed to Islam. Say they were also kidnapped, tortured, and let's say some of these people were killed. Would you be so critical of them as well? Personally I would think they would be heroes. It takes a lot of courage to risk your life to help people you don't know.

   Cristo Vive!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Israfil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2007 at 9:38pm

Tom123

Soldiers are heroes.

Police Officers are heroes.

Firefighters are heroes.

Religious figures are heroes.

Misguided religious idealist do not count as heroes in my book. Any group who is conscious of a dangerous warzone and knows the possibility that they may be either be permanantly incapacitated or seriously harmed but still proceeds to do the work anyway is not heroism its called st**idity. I would be equallys (and even more critical) of Muslims who proceeded to go to a non-muslim area especially if they were conscious of the consequences. Saving lives is one thing because its a moral necessity but humanitarian work can always be done without putting yourself in harm's way.

This is a similar point I was getting to with Islamispeace when he said that these korean missionaries have a choice. What I was explaining to him was that autonomy, that is, us sovereign beings, have the ability to make "free" choices but not every free choice is logical.

Tom123 even reading my criticism of those former hostages I didn't see any "hateful" words. I think your subjectively is misattributed because nothing that I've said outside my normal behavior was hateful. Hateful or hate is a strong word therefore I ask you for strong evidence showing what I said in my words that were hateful. Just because I called their actions st**id doesn't mean the word st**id is hateful. It an be an insult but its not hateful.

BTW most missionary work today is covert Christian conversion we can start with the bible belt for instance by reading this old article:

Bible Belt missionaries set out on a 'war for souls' in Iraq


Last Updated: 12:01am GMT 27/12/2003

American Christian missionaries have declared a "war for souls" in Iraq, telling supporters that the formal end of the US-led occupation next June will close an historic "window of opportunity".

Organising in secrecy, and emphasising their humanitarian aid work, Christian groups are pouring into the country, which is 97 per cent Muslim, bearing Arabic Bibles, videos and religious tracts designed to "save" Muslims from their "false" religion.

 
Mission from god: Jon Hanna and Jackie Cone after they visited Iraq

The International Mission Board, the missionary arm of the Southern Baptists, is one of those leading the charge.

John Brady, the IMB's head for the Middle East and North Africa, this month appealed to the 16 million members of his church, the largest Protestant denomination in America.

"Southern Baptists have prayed for years that Iraq would somehow be opened to the gospel," his appeal began. That "open door" for Christians may soon close.

"Southern Baptists must understand that there is a war for souls under way in Iraq," his bulletin added, listing Islamic leaders and "pseudo-Christian" groups also flooding Iraq as his chief rivals. talk of Muslims and Christians worshipping the same God.

Jerry Vines, former head of the Southern Baptist Convention, has described the Prophet Mohammed as a "demon-obsessed paedophile". Franklin Graham, son of Billy Graham and the head of Samaritan's Purse, a big donor to Iraq, has described Islam as a "very evil and wicked religion".

The missionaries pose a dilemma for President George W Bush. He has reached out to Muslims since September 11, shrugging off criticism from evangelicals to describe Islam as "peaceful". But Christian conservatives are also a key Bush constituency: Franklin Graham delivered the invocation prayer at his presidential inauguration.

The US Agency for International Development has said that the government cannot rein in private charities. "Imagine what the US Congress would say to us," said a spokesman in April.

Jon Hanna, an evangelical from Ohio who has recently returned from Iraq, applied for a new passport to travel there, describing himself as a humanitarian worker. "I was worried the US authorities might try to stop us, might be worried we were going to start a riot with our Bibles."

In Baghdad last month Mr Hanna met two other American missionary teams. One, from Indiana, had shipped in 1.3 million Christian tracts. "A US passport is all you need to get in, until the new Iraqi government takes over. What we thought was a two-year window, originally, has narrowed down to a six month window," said Mr Hanna, an evangelical minister and editor of Connection Magazine, a Christian newspaper in Ohio.

He describes Islam as "false". He cited St John's Gospel, saying: "Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist."

Mr Hanna concluded: "The Muslim religion is an antichrist religion." Later Mr Hanna asked to retract that choice of words. "Without the reader hearing my voice and looking into my eyes as I made that statement, it would be easy for certain readers to feel personally attacked and be offended," Mr Hanna wrote by email. "That would be unfruitful."

He rejected the suggestion that aid work was a "cover" for missionary work, preferring to call it a "conduit for sharing the gospel of Jesus. Christians are commanded to minister to the hungry, but also to the hunger of the spirit. It can't be separated," he said.

In public, the largest groups put the emphasis on their delivery of food parcels and their medical work. However, their internal fund-raising materials emphasise mission work. One IMB bulletin reported aid workers handing out copies of the New Testament and praying with Muslim recipients. Another bulletin said Iraqis understood "who was bringing the food . . . it was the Christians from America."

Southern Baptists from North Carolina visited Iraq in October to help hand out 45,000 boxes of donated food. One of the team, Jim Walker, told IMB's Urgent News bulletin that he met village children "starved of attention and I could tell some of them have not eaten well. But their biggest need is to know the love of Christ."

Mr Hanna said he encountered friendly curiosity, with noisy crowds gathering to take his group's tracts. "Maybe 10 per cent were hostile." He was one of 21 on his mission including Jackie Cone, 72, a Pentecostalist grandmother from Ohio who said God had told her to join a second mission planned for next year. "I sensed Him telling me to come back in January," she said.

Mrs Cone is confident she made converts in Baghdad. In her hotel she met a Muslim woman on crutches with a leg operation due that day. Mrs Cone knelt on the lobby floor and prayed that surgery would not be required.

"I saw her that evening and she said God had healed her, and she hadn't needed the surgery. She didn't say Allah, she pointed to Heaven and gave God the glory," she said.

Mrs Cone led the Kurdish woman and her brother in prayer, asking Jesus into their hearts. "I'd given them a Bible and a Jesus video in Arabic. I think they think of themselves as Christians now," she said. "They have the Bible and I hope they will grow in grace."

Muslims are hard converts, American missionaries admit. The large organisations have experts trained in refuting Muslim teachings that Jesus is just another prophet.

Before going to Iraq, Mr Hanna studied Christian training manuals and attended a seminar for missionaries to the Arab world.

Mr Hanna concedes his new Iraqi friends were possibly drawn by the novelty of meeting Americans. "But you don't discount that, you use it as an opportunity to tell them about Jesus. Last time we only took 8,000 Arabic Bibles to Iraq. In future missions the goal is one million."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$XG3OFB SVSMSZ5QFIQMFSFFWAVCBQ0IV0?xml=/news/2003/12/27/wirq27.xml



Edited by Israfil
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hayfa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 11:23am

Also,

Whose arrogance is that I think I "know" how to help these people? Do the folks speak Dar, Farsi etc? What do they have to offer? Why not donate to the Red Crescent?

The Afghani people have had their world destroyed. By outsiders coming in.. and you know, I spoek once a long time ago to a woman talking at my school about the women in India, oppression etc. I asked her what we could do, she said fix your government.

Considering outsiders are in the land, and call people there the "enemy" (meaning Afghanis) cause they aren't doing what we want them to do, why and how can people tell the difference? What they should have done is work for peace by changing their government's policy, not supporting US.

See I don't feel much Tom, cause you know what, hundreds of thousands of people havedied over there. Why oh why are they any different then the other people? The people there just would like us all to leave.. They would like to leave.

And on top of it, sorry but the South Koreans are HUGE evangelicals. Huge. If you wanto help, gather the food and give it to CARE or another international aid group.  And really, why aren't they going to the Christian African nations? why not? There is tons and tons of poverty there.. but no one to convert.. hmmm

I appreciate anyone who aims to do good. But this is all fishy. And i grew up in the Liberation Theology tradition of Catholicism and have great respect for many of them. But you don't head into a war with no credentials or knowledge. Really they not only endanger themselves, they are endangering others.  

 

 

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Tom123

Soldiers are heroes.

Police Officers are heroes.

   Israfil, I strongly disagree, particularly with the soldiers. I believe that the heroes in our world are people who do their best to help others and take risks for doing so, but that they do not carry guns. Then again, bear in mind I am writing from a Christian viewpoint, and so I believe that the use of violence is never justified since Jesus said we are to love our enemies. I recognize there are some Christians who will disagree with me on this, but I challenge anyone to try justify war or violence of any kind in light of what Jesus taught.

   But I may be digressing a bit here. Although I believe that there are many soldiers who are brave and I have nothing against them, I do not believe they are heroes.

Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Firefighters are heroes.

   Yes.

Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Religious figures are heroes.

   Depends which ones.  I think we agree that the 'hero' title would not apply to Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson

  

Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Misguided religious idealist do not count as heroes in my book. Any group who is conscious of a dangerous warzone and knows the possibility that they may be either be permanantly incapacitated or seriously harmed but still proceeds to do the work anyway is not heroism its called st**idity. I would be equallys (and even more critical) of Muslims who proceeded to go to a non-muslim area especially if they were conscious of the consequences. Saving lives is one thing because its a moral necessity but humanitarian work can always be done without putting yourself in harm's way.

   OK, thank you for being so frank with me. I appreciate hearing your view, but strongly disagree. I believe that when we see people suffering we have an obligation to do what we can to help them, and if that means placing our lives in danger or even losing them, so be it. Giving money to charities for example may be a 'safer' way, but often there is a lot of controversy about how much of that cash gets there.

   BTW someone had to deliver these medicines, is that not correct? So if these South Koreans did not go, someone else would have in their place. They were doing a very dangerous job and if it wasn't them it could have been someone else.   

Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

This is a similar point I was getting to with Islamispeace when he said that these korean missionaries have a choice. What I was explaining to him was that autonomy, that is, us sovereign beings, have the ability to make "free" choices but not every free choice is logical.

   How do you define 'logical'? Are you saying that because these people took a risk that their actions were illogical? Perhaps if the person deciding what is or is not logical (I'm not saying that person would be you) defines 'logical' as doing something that is safe. I believe that serving God is not always safe.

Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Tom123 even reading my criticism of those former hostages I didn't see any "hateful" words. I think your subjectively is misattributed because nothing that I've said outside my normal behavior was hateful. Hateful or hate is a strong word therefore I ask you for strong evidence showing what I said in my words that were hateful. Just because I called their actions st**id doesn't mean the word st**id is hateful. It an be an insult but its not hateful.

   Alright, you do have a point here, Israfil. Hate was a strong and now that I look back on this discussion an inappropriate word to describe your response. Insulting would be a better word. I still strongly disagree with you on this issue but I take back calling your words 'hateful' and I apologize.

Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

BTW most missionary work today is covert Christian conversion we can start with the bible belt for instance by reading this old article:


Bible Belt missionaries set out on a 'war for souls' in Iraq


Last Updated: 12:01am GMT 27/12/2003

American Christian missionaries have declared a "war for souls" in Iraq, telling supporters that the formal end of the US-led occupation next June will close an historic "window of opportunity".

Organising in secrecy, and emphasising their humanitarian aid work, Christian groups are pouring into the country, which is 97 per cent Muslim, bearing Arabic Bibles, videos and religious tracts designed to "save" Muslims from their "false" religion.

 
Mission from god: Jon Hanna and Jackie Cone after they visited Iraq

The International Mission Board, the missionary arm of the Southern Baptists, is one of those leading the charge.

John Brady, the IMB's head for the Middle East and North Africa, this month appealed to the 16 million members of his church, the largest Protestant denomination in America.

"Southern Baptists have prayed for years that Iraq would somehow be opened to the gospel," his appeal began. That "open door" for Christians may soon close.

"Southern Baptists must understand that there is a war for souls under way in Iraq," his bulletin added, listing Islamic leaders and "pseudo-Christian" groups also flooding Iraq as his chief rivals. talk of Muslims and Christians worshipping the same God.

Jerry Vines, former head of the Southern Baptist Convention, has described the Prophet Mohammed as a "demon-obsessed paedophile". Franklin Graham, son of Billy Graham and the head of Samaritan's Purse, a big donor to Iraq, has described Islam as a "very evil and wicked religion".

The missionaries pose a dilemma for President George W Bush. He has reached out to Muslims since September 11, shrugging off criticism from evangelicals to describe Islam as "peaceful". But Christian conservatives are also a key Bush constituency: Franklin Graham delivered the invocation prayer at his presidential inauguration.

The US Agency for International Development has said that the government cannot rein in private charities. "Imagine what the US Congress would say to us," said a spokesman in April.

Jon Hanna, an evangelical from Ohio who has recently returned from Iraq, applied for a new passport to travel there, describing himself as a humanitarian worker. "I was worried the US authorities might try to stop us, might be worried we were going to start a riot with our Bibles."

In Baghdad last month Mr Hanna met two other American missionary teams. One, from Indiana, had shipped in 1.3 million Christian tracts. "A US passport is all you need to get in, until the new Iraqi government takes over. What we thought was a two-year window, originally, has narrowed down to a six month window," said Mr Hanna, an evangelical minister and editor of Connection Magazine, a Christian newspaper in Ohio.

He describes Islam as "false". He cited St John's Gospel, saying: "Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist."

Mr Hanna concluded: "The Muslim religion is an antichrist religion." Later Mr Hanna asked to retract that choice of words. "Without the reader hearing my voice and looking into my eyes as I made that statement, it would be easy for certain readers to feel personally attacked and be offended," Mr Hanna wrote by email. "That would be unfruitful."

He rejected the suggestion that aid work was a "cover" for missionary work, preferring to call it a "conduit for sharing the gospel of Jesus. Christians are commanded to minister to the hungry, but also to the hunger of the spirit. It can't be separated," he said.

In public, the largest groups put the emphasis on their delivery of food parcels and their medical work. However, their internal fund-raising materials emphasise mission work. One IMB bulletin reported aid workers handing out copies of the New Testament and praying with Muslim recipients. Another bulletin said Iraqis understood "who was bringing the food . . . it was the Christians from America."

Southern Baptists from North Carolina visited Iraq in October to help hand out 45,000 boxes of donated food. One of the team, Jim Walker, told IMB's Urgent News bulletin that he met village children "starved of attention and I could tell some of them have not eaten well. But their biggest need is to know the love of Christ."

Mr Hanna said he encountered friendly curiosity, with noisy crowds gathering to take his group's tracts. "Maybe 10 per cent were hostile." He was one of 21 on his mission including Jackie Cone, 72, a Pentecostalist grandmother from Ohio who said God had told her to join a second mission planned for next year. "I sensed Him telling me to come back in January," she said.

Mrs Cone is confident she made converts in Baghdad. In her hotel she met a Muslim woman on crutches with a leg operation due that day. Mrs Cone knelt on the lobby floor and prayed that surgery would not be required.

"I saw her that evening and she said God had healed her, and she hadn't needed the surgery. She didn't say Allah, she pointed to Heaven and gave God the glory," she said.

Mrs Cone led the Kurdish woman and her brother in prayer, asking Jesus into their hearts. "I'd given them a Bible and a Jesus video in Arabic. I think they think of themselves as Christians now," she said. "They have the Bible and I hope they will grow in grace."

Muslims are hard converts, American missionaries admit. The large organisations have experts trained in refuting Muslim teachings that Jesus is just another prophet.

Before going to Iraq, Mr Hanna studied Christian training manuals and attended a seminar for missionaries to the Arab world.

Mr Hanna concedes his new Iraqi friends were possibly drawn by the novelty of meeting Americans. "But you don't discount that, you use it as an opportunity to tell them about Jesus. Last time we only took 8,000 Arabic Bibles to Iraq. In future missions the goal is one million."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$XG3OFB SVSMSZ5QFIQMFSFFWAVCBQ0IV0?xml=/news/2003/12/27/wirq27.xml


   Thank you for this article, I have read it in 2003 actually and have a copy of it. I'll share some of my thoughts on it.

   I personally think that the attitude of these missionaries is quite arrogant, and that they are wrong to be insulting the beliefs of Muslims. Calling Muhammad a 'demon obsessed paedophile' is false, hateful, idiotic and counterproductive to any dialogue. As you probably know, I am not a Muslim and I do not believe that all of Islam's teachings are true, but I think that this sort of language is not right.

   The article seems to speak of members of Pentecostal and Baptist churches, almost all of whom unfortunately supported and continue to support the invasion of Iraq. These 'missions' are being organized by Southern Baptists- who I am assuming are linked to the Southern Baptist Convention, which supported the war. As Christians, they should have been calling out against it and denouncing it and protesting against it. I believe that their main 'rivals' should not be Muslim leaders or other Christians, but their government who launched this brutal invasion.

   I do believe that as Christians we have a responsibility to live out the Gospel and share our faith with others. Sorry.

I think that if Christians go on missions trips, we should live with the people we are working with and take the time to listen to them and learn from them. I believe when we give material help it should not be with an air of superiority or arrogance, like the whole 'look at us we are such nice people' giving gifts to these 'poor souls'. We need to remember (especially Westerners) that often the people we are serving are suffering because of the policies of our country's leaderships. We need to realize that like us they are created in Gods' likeness and His image, and that like us Jesus died for them on the cross. I believe we should share our faith with them, but the help that we provide needs to be unconditional. We can't refuse to help people if they don't want to become Christians, that would be a travesty of everything that Jesus taught.

   For an example of what I think true Christian missions are like, check out the MCCs website, www.mcc.org .

   The South Koreans who went to Afghanistan btw of course were not with the Southern Baptist Convention, and I have not read anything to suggest that they were demonizing Muhammad or only providing help to Christians or people who said they were going to become Christians.
   So I don't see how the above mentioned article would apply to them.

   Cristo Vive!
         - Tomasz



  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:57pm
Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:

Also,

Whose arrogance is that I think I "know" how to help these people? Do the folks speak Dar, Farsi etc? What do they have to offer? Why not donate to the Red Crescent?

   Giving donations is certainly one way to help. Going there personally is another, and I see nothing wrong with it. Do you think that the Taleban would not have kidnapped and murdered Red Crescent workers? Had these people not went, someone else who would have could have also been kidnapped and murdered.

Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:

The Afghani people have had their world destroyed. By outsiders coming in.. and you know, I spoek once a long time ago to a woman talking at my school about the women in India, oppression etc. I asked her what we could do, she said fix your government.

   I fully agree that we need to be challenging the policies of our governments when they lead to imperialism and injustice. But there are many possible ways to help, and aid work is certainly one of them. You certainly support at least one aid group, the Red Crescent (as do I).

So just as there is a need for protest, there is also a need for aid work. If all the Red Crescent members decided to disband their charity and stop their work and devote their energies to government changing only, imagine how many would die. The actions of the South Koreans were no less important.

 

Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:

Considering outsiders are in the land, and call people there the "enemy" (meaning Afghanis) cause they aren't doing what we want them to do, why and how can people tell the difference?

   I may have overlooked something, but where did the missionaries call the people of Afghanistan 'the enemy'? Where does it say that the South Koreans ordered the Afghans around or told them what to believe? In fact, they did not even talk about their faith openly (except possibly when refusing to accept Islam under the pain of being beaten).

Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:

What they should have done is work for peace by changing their government's policy, not supporting US.

   I agree that they should have voiced their opposition to the war, I do not know if they did. I certainly oppose it. But that does not mean that activism is the only possible action to take. Aid work is important too.

Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:

See I don't feel much Tom, cause you know what, hundreds of thousands of people havedied over there. Why oh why are they any different then the other people? The people there just would like us all to leave.. They would like to leave.

   I believe they would like the US soldiers, NATO occupying troops and foreign militants fighting for the Taleban and/or Al Qaeda to leave. I believe most would like to see the Taleban and Northern Alliance leave them alone, too.

   I don't know if they would want aid workers who are providing them with food and medicine to leave.

   You are right that hundreds of thousands of people died in Afghanistan. In fact, tens of thousands die around the world of hunger each day. Millions have died in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, more than all the victims in Palestine and Chechnya combined. So should we forget about Palestinians and Chechens and focus only on the Congolese?
 
   Every human life is precious, and you are right, the deaths of the aid workers are not sad or tragic than the deaths of Afghanis whose deaths are not more sad or tragic than the deaths of Congolese people.

   I believe that the courage of the South Korean aid workers was admirable, as was their commitment to following Jesus so I wrote this post.

Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:

And on top of it, sorry but the South Koreans are HUGE  evangelicals. Huge.

   So? How does that make their work any less important or less worthy of support?

Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:

If you wanto help, gather the food and give it to CARE or another international aid group.

   Why not to them? Because they are Christians?

 

Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:

And really, why aren't they going to the Christian African nations? why not? There is tons and tons of poverty there.. but no one to convert.. hmmm

   How do you know they do not go to Christian African nations?

This may or may not be on topic, but I have a bit of missions experience myself. I went on a missions trip to El Salvador last summer, I spent 2 weeks with a group of El Salvadoran social workers working for the Evangelical Lutheran Church in El Salvador who are involved in working among prisoners to teach them about peaceful alternatives to violence and with street youth to organize activities and keep them out of gangs. The program was founded and is led by a Canadian missionary. Both the ELCIES and a Catholic aid group in El Salvador, CRIDPES, are also otspoken in their opposition to abuses committed by foreign mining companies and during the war have opposed the US backed military regimes. One of my friends' friend in CRIDPES has been arrested recently for helping organize a rally against water privatization. She is being charged with 'terrorism'.

   The people in ELCIES who I have worked with did awesome social justice work and they do it in the name of Jesus and yes, they do talk about Him to others when oppurtunities arise, which is pretty often.

   My role? I went there, observed what they had done, prayed with them, learned from them. In Canada, I have spoken and written about my time there to raise awareness among Canadians and particularly Canadian Christians about the injustices that my El Salvadoran brothers and sisters are facing each day. I also send money to them when I can and keep in touch with them and pray for them and do my best to encourage them in their work.

  

Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:

I appreciate anyone who aims to do good. But this is all fishy.

   I don't see how this is 'fishy'.

Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:

And i grew up in the Liberation Theology tradition of Catholicism and have great respect for many of them. But you don't head into a war with no credentials or knowledge. Really they not only endanger themselves, they are endangering others.

   What kind of 'credentials' would you say are necessary? I believe that if we see people suffering, we should do everything we can to help them. Help can come in different ways, and what these people did in my opinion certainly was good and appropriate.

   Cristo Vive!

        - Tomasz 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mariyah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 6:43pm

Tom 123, I agree with Isafril;

Didnt Jesus state that we should not harm the children?

So is it nice to taunt children by stating if they want food for their families they need to sing a Jesus song? Is that how your propagate the faith?

You should watch the clip on Utube showing what they were really doing. And judge not yet ye not be judged.

And see the documentary of the Crusades, the Crescent and the Cross, done by the history channel.

You might then understand why Crusaders are not welcome in some parts of the world.

Open your  mind and expand.

 

 

Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Tom123 I think your naive thinking has taken over your rational judgement.

These so-called christian missionaries endangered themselves by trying to preach the "word" and although in the eyes of Christendom, it is a noble act such acts alone are ignorant. God has given us intelligible faculties and the ability to utilize these faculties. I don't see why one would praise Jesus after a group just endangered themselves. So you think they should get a medal for not practicing common sense?



Edited by Maryah
"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.
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Tom123 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 7:10pm
Originally posted by Maryah Maryah wrote:

Tom 123, I agree with Isafril;

Didnt Jesus state that we should not harm the children?

So is it nice to taunt children by stating if they want food for their families they need to sing a Jesus song? Is that how your propagate the faith?

You should watch the clip on Utube showing what they were really doing. And judge not yet ye not be judged.

And see the documentary of the Crusades, the Crescent and the Cross, done by the history channel.

You might then understand why Crusaders are not welcome in some parts of the world.

Open your  mind and expand.

 

 

Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Tom123 I think your naive thinking has taken over your rational judgement.

These so-called christian missionaries endangered themselves by trying to preach the "word" and although in the eyes of Christendom, it is a noble act such acts alone are ignorant. God has given us intelligible faculties and the ability to utilize these faculties. I don't see why one would praise Jesus after a group just endangered themselves. So you think they should get a medal for not practicing common sense?


   What clip are you talking about, could you send me the link please?

   This is the first time I heard accusations that these people were forcing children to sing Christian songs in order to get food. Are you saying that these people told the kids that if they want to get food they need to sing songs about Jesus?

   If that is true, then their actions were despicable and indeed worthy of condemnation. I personally find this a bit hard to believe, not least because I think the secular media would have immediately exposed something like this.

   I haven't seen this documentary, but I think it is unfair to refer to these people as 'crusaders'. The crusaders were a brutal, murderous invading army who looted, raped and slaughtered their way across every part of Eastern Europe and the Middle East they went to. These people did not kill anyone.

   Lastly, I'm not judging or condemning the Taleban, US Army, NATO or anyone else. I am condemning their sick acts of violence, but not them as people. I believe they can be saved if they repent and put their faith in Jesus Christ.

   Cristo Vive!
        - Tomasz
  
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