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What is this "something else"?
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Caringheart View Drop Down
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Points: 2991 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caringheart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 December 2012 at 11:48am
Originally posted by Nausheen Nausheen wrote:

Originally posted by islamispeace islamispeace wrote:

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...
Originally posted by Caringheart Caringheart wrote:


such as that Muslims pray 5 times a day to say how "terrible Jews and Christians are"
I did not say this.  This may just be a communication problem that you and I have.  Show me where I said this.  This appears to be you twisting my words which may not be your intent at all, but merely the way you understand me.In other words... 'what my words mean to you'. You are very quick to make judgements about others and to put negative labels on them without trying to reach understanding.
You are either a fool, a liar or have a short memory...or maybe all three!What do you think we have been talking about all this time?!  This is what you wrote on 12/8:"You are taught to say, 5 times a day, how wonderful you[muslims> are, and how terrible Jews and Christians are."It seems to me like you are a fool and a liar with a very short memory.  You make st**id accusations and then try to back out later when you are cornered.  There can be no "understanding" with a person like you.  That would be like a Jewish person trying to "reach understanding" with a member of the KKK!



Im not sure about the policies of moderation anymore - however, personally it is extremely objectionable that someone is being called a 'fool' a 'liar' and 's***id'

If I was still moderating, would have had serious issues with you !!


Thank you Nausheen.
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Caringheart View Drop Down
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Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:

Originally posted by Caringheart Caringheart wrote:

more of this 'something else'

I share my thoughts not as blasphemy but because it is asked, and because by sharing my views you may come to understand me, if that is what you seek, as I am also able to see and understand by your speaking, why you do not believe in Jesus.  And it is in understanding one another that we may find peace with one another.  Understanding is key.
...


Hi CaringHeart,

Are you claiming that during Muslim prayers they are taught to say how wonderful they are, and how terrible Christians and Jews are?

Can you provide any evidence of that?
...

However, having said this, it is not true that Muslims are taught to curse Christians and Jews as they pray.

"However, having said this, it is not true that Muslims are taught to curse Christians and Jews as they pray."
Ok, this really annoys me, because I never said they do curse anyone.

What I said is that the prayer, depending on how it is understood, taught, and interpreted, by different muslims around the world... promotes prejudice and pride.

It has been said by muslims themselves that the following line of surah
1:7 The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.
that it is understood by muslims that 'those whom Thou hast favored' refers to muslims
'those who earn Thine anger' are the Jews
and 'those who are astray' are the Christians

To me this imparts a certain prejudice and pride in the muslim mind if it is truly understood to carry this meaning.  It is said that in the quran's used in Saudi Arabia [muslims], [Jews], and [Christians] are parenthetically, as I've shown here, included in the scripture.  It has also been said that this is an aberration.

I feel that those who earn God's wrath, and those who are astray can be any person of any religion in the world, as well as those whom He favors.  I believe only God can judge the true nature of a person and where his heart lies, and that putting the notion into the human mind to think that they know... to put labels on whole groups of people, is wrong.  Jesus made this point over, and over again, regarding the Pharisees.

The reason I bother to post is to hear from muslims themselves what these verses mean to them... so they can dispel concern, and to raise awareness on their parts of what their scriptures can mean, or can be interpreted to mean, and are interpreted to mean, in some parts of the world.

If I had time to go back through notes, or to redo research, I could provide sources.  I do know that it was muslims themselves who shared the information seeking to provide enlightenment to those who do not know, or as they put it 'are in ignorance'.  It is easy enough to research for ones self. 
I am not saying that I interpret the verse of surah 1 that is prayed 5 times a day this way.  What I do is question the impact that saying this 5 times a day has on the mind of the one saying it.  It depends on what meaning it has for the one saying it, does it not?  It depends on what meaning it has been taught to have, does it not?  It has different meaning to different muslims depending on how they have been taught.  This is what I understand, and so I also question the requirement of saying it 5 times a day, and the impact of that.

If someone wishes to explain the verse to me in an acceptable way, here they have a forum to do that.  Not to just dispute, but to share with me their feelings about how it can be interpreted and whether or not they themselves take it to have such meaning.
Dispel my concerns.
If they can tell to me that this prayer, this scripture, can mean the same to them as it means to me...

Salaam,
CH

addendum:
"to the unbelievers among them..." surah 4:161 and 162

"But those steeped in knowledge, as also the believers among them, believe what was revealed to you and what was revealed before you..."
... those who pray, those who pay alms, those who believe in God and the last day...
-- These were believers whether or not they believed in Muhammad, and they were acknowledged as being among the Jews.  Believers and unbelievers among the Jews, just as there are believers and unbelievers amongst every faith, muslims included.
The word of Muhammad is confused and confusing... shifting.  This is why I do not accept Muhammad as prophet of God.  I think that Muhammad was confused and did not understand the word being given to him.
Muhammad was confused about God's Word... the scriptures.


Edited by Caringheart - 28 December 2012 at 8:21pm
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Caringheart View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Nausheen Nausheen wrote:


Greetings Caringheart,

Thank you for your careful response.
Please accept my apologies for having missed it until just now.

Looks like you have read a lot more than myself on the history of Islam. Im impressed.

Since you've asked for suggestions, I will take the liberty of directing you to two sources.

1. Had read this book a while ago : Muhammad: A biography of the Prophet by Karen Armstrong.
Did not know she was a muslim until a few months ago. Before writing here, I checked Amazon.com for her contribution - you might want to take a look at http://www.amazon.com/Karen-Armstrong/e/B000AQ72VE

2. Go to old forums on islamicity - can find the link thru the top right panel of this page, and search for discussions by 'Servetus'
He is a non-muslim who read extensively about islam - much thru discussions - and a great thing about him was that everyone amoungst us muslims loved him.

Greetings Nausheen,

Thank you very much.  I have not read nearly enough.  I have said, it can take a lifetime just to know the religion one was born into, let alone understand all others, but I do have an insatiable thirst for knowledge. Smile 
You have led me to a wealth of information.  I looked up Karen Armstrong, which led me to reading about the Axial age... very fascinating... and to Muhammad; Legacy of a prophet.  I get most of my books from my local library and they do not have the one you suggest on Muhammad, but they do have Islam; A short History, and The Bible: A Biography, both by Karen Armstrong and given good reviews.  Karen Armstrong is apparently considered to be a good, reliable source.  I will be checking out both books.  I will search to buy the other one, about Muhammad, online.  Thanks very much.
The path of learning and knowledge is endless.  Smile

Blessings and peace,
Caringheart



Edited by Caringheart - 26 December 2012 at 12:44pm
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Caringheart View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Nausheen Nausheen wrote:


Would you please point to your source which says 'how terrible jews and christians are'? Thank you.


Greetings Nausheen,

I just saw this other post by you.
Can I just refer you to what I wrote to TG above? Smile  I think I may have covered your question there.

Salaam,
Caringheart

I just came across this written right here on this forum by a muslim on the forum;

    "The Jews have earned the wrath of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala because of their rejection of Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) as the Messsiah, and the Christians are astray because they teach the concept of the Holy Trinity which is polytheism."

Is this not prejudice promoted?  To say that ALL Jews have earned the wrath of God?  Jews in history, by their behavior, have at times suffered the wrath of God...
and all 'Christians'... all people who follow and believe in Jesus... do not believe in the Trinity, and even when they do, they believe that the three are the One.  This is not polytheism.  So is it right to say they are astray?
Is it right for anyone to promote the idea that all Jews and 'Christians' are condemned?


Edited by Caringheart - 28 December 2012 at 11:41am
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honeto View Drop Down
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Points: 2487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 December 2012 at 7:06pm
Originally posted by Caringheart Caringheart wrote:

Greetings Hasan,You have completely ignored what I wrote."The Bible contradicts all of that and some more."No it doesn't.� Not for me.� Not by my interpretation or understanding.� Maybe by someone else's interpretation though.� It's all a matter of interpretation.� The same with the quran.The Bible does not contradict any of these things... only by the interpretation of some.All that is revealed to me is from God and His Word... the Bible.Have you read the Bible for yourself?� (All of it?)Salaam,CH



Caringheart,
interpretations comes later when we have our beliefs set in something. Before that, like a legal document needs a keen inspection, so does the things that make our belief.
Yes I have read the Bible. And I must repeat this painful conclusion, that I wish I had not read it. I have many friends who I knew as Christians, after reading it I do not see them as I used to. I have a lot of disappointment in its contents. I rally believed it to be word of God revealed to prophet Jesus (pbuh). It is anything but that. It lacks the quality of a divinely inspired revelation from the All Knowing.
If you can sum up your understanding of it's teachings on the three most important issues I mentioned in my last post, I will show you their contradictions in it. please be brief in each, and I will be brief as well.

Of course, even devil worshipers have the same argument as you that they are right from their interpretation of it while others are wrong, please don't take that personal.
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 28 December 2012 at 7:11pm
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Caringheart View Drop Down
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Promotion of pride(and unequality) in Islam

3:110

You are the best of peoples...

and does not the following promote prejudice?
5:51 O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends.


Edited by Caringheart - 07 January 2013 at 9:45pm
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Abu Loren View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Caringheart Caringheart wrote:

Promotion of pride(and unequality) in Islam

3:110

You are the best of peoples...

and does not the following promote prejudice?
5:51 O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends.
 
Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala loves the believers and hates the unbelievers. Simple.
 
If you like, yes He hates the Jews and Christians for not following His Laws and Commands.
 
If you find that hard to accept then tough.
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Rational View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Caringheart Caringheart wrote:

and does not the following promote prejudice?
5:51 O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends.

Allah (SWT) did not mean ALL Jews and Christians.

JEWISH / CHRISTIAN ALLIANCE IN ISLAM - SHEIKH IMRAN HOSEIN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eslpGkSpZU

"It should be clear that the Qur�an has prohibited Muslims from maintaining friendly ties with only that Judeo-Christian alliance and not with all Christians and all Jews."
http://www.imranhosein.org/articles/understanding-islam/73-neither-friends-nor-allies.html


Edited by Rational - 08 January 2013 at 2:50am
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