THE BIBLE SAYS TO WORSHIP JESUS IS IDOLAT |
Post Reply | Page <1 7891011 12> |
Author | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
honeto
Senior Member Male Islam Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 2487 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Patty,
sorry I was away for a few days, but here I am to respond to your statements. I notice some of your statments are not so characteristic of you and I must correct you on those.
you wrote: Every Muslim knows from childhood that Christians believe in three Gods. He is constantly warned about committing this "sin of sins". The fact that there is a Father, Son and Holy Spirit sounds like blasphemy to a Muslim and is synonymous with breaking the first commandment: "You shall not have any other gods before me." Anyone who confesses that there are one or two god-like persons beside Allah commits an unforgivable sin. This coincides with the sin against the Holy Spirit (Sura al-Nisa 4:48 and 116).
I must say Patty, you are wrong on that. First not all Muslims teach their kids how others believe, many in fact don't teach their kids about their own while many others do. So its incorrect for you so think that that's how all Muslims teach their kids. I grew up in a Muslim country with our front door Christian neighbors very close to us ineveryday life. We never try to convince or counter religion with them. All we knew that they believe God has a son. My best friend in college back home was a Christian, all if I ever heard was that they believe that God has a son. That's all I knew about him. It was not until I came here that I heard that the son also being God.
I have mentioned this before, my wife is also a former Christian, and I know of many other former Catholics (hispanics) who are now Muslims. They tell me that trinity was always a mystry to them as they were told how it is, In Islam they say now they are free of that mystry. Now this is not Muslims who are came up with, these are people who all their lives were believing in trinity, yet did not understand or grasped it.
To any Christian that I have encoutered, and I did many, this was a great challange when I asked them about explaining it. After being unable to do so, just like you said "I cannot explain the Trinity to you, Hasan" they will just invite me to come to their church, and that's it.
I do not teach my kids that Christians believe in three gods, rather how Christians say it themselves. That God is One, who has a son, Jesus and supported by the Holy Spirit. And they understand that, they just cannot see that to be true. They say, God cannot and does not have a son. If God has a son than He is not God, because God is above these kind of things we human can have. They also say, that if God has a son, and a Mother as you and Catholics believes then there is more than three. God the Mother should be first, God the Father, then comes God the Son and then the Holy Spirit. They also say what happened to God the Grandmother, and God the Grandfather, and you know all of the above. So, its a never ending thing. Thus we believe what is without mystry and evident reality, One God. No nothing else beside him as god. No ifs no butts. You got that right there is none like God, period. God does not need anything and anyone, the only One Free of All Wants and Needs.
You also wrote:
The mystery that our God is love remains hidden to Muslims. The Father loved the Son before all time. He is not an egoist who only loves Himself. Through Him, the "Word," He created the universe. After Jesus' substitutionary death of reconciliation, the Father bestowed all power in heaven and on earth into the hands of the risen conqueror. The Holy Spirit today is completing the work of the Son in His church. Muslims see none of this. They also do not understand that the Holy Spirit never glorifies Himself, but the Son, and the Son continually honours the Father, who has set the Victor over sin, death and hell at His right hand. Such spiritual relationships in the Holy Trinity are completely foreign to a Muslim. He does not want to understand the words of Jesus: "I and the Father are one", or "the Father is in Me and I in Him." Love, humility and self-denial, in Islam, do not emerge as roots of every spiritual authority. Allah is different. He is the only one exalted from beginning to end, solitary and unreachable. This is more of an attack and not expected of someone like you Patty, did someone hijacked you name, or someone else is speaking behind you?No God's love is not hidden from us the Muslims. You are 100% wrong to say that Muslims say that God only loves himself, or that God has ego. That is just your thoughts and not the truth at all. We Muslims are aware of God's love for humanity that He has bestowed upon us since Adam, in form of his guides and guidance.
We understand that His love is abundent, and it was his love for us that He sent us the guidance and the last testament, the Quran. Its upto us to answer that call of love and salvation with humbleness and truth, or keep living in love for ourself and in ignorance to our own loss.
We understand that if we don't answer to his call before the angel of death takes our soul, we will have no part in the herafter, thus be among the loosers.
Further you said: Allah is different. He is the only one exalted from beginning to end, solitary and unreachable
Wrong again dear Patty, this is how close God is to all of us,
Quran 50:16"It is (God) Who created man, and (God) knows what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein."
3:76 "Nay.- Those that keep their plighted faith and act aright,-verily Allah loves those who act aright."
Hasan Edited by honeto - 15 December 2008 at 2:03pm |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PattyaMainer
Senior Member Female Joined: 03 August 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 352 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
My Dear Hasan,
I apologize if I have offended you. It is my own lack of verbal ability to accurately explain to you what you have been asking about. It frustrates me deeply, because I am such a devout Catholic and Christian, yet I seem to fail miserably in my efforts to explain my faith to you. Also, I had learned that a dear friend of mine was found dead in her home, and I have been saddened by this tragedy.
You see, Hasan, I think I have mentioned this before, but on an Islamic website I cannot (or will not) out of respect say anything questioning about your religion. There are many things in the Qur'an which appear contradictory or inaccurate, even violent toward infidels, to me. But that aside, the more I attempt to explain or enlighten you regarding why Catholics believe, worship, think the way we do, the more I am met with more statements telling me how my Bible is corrupt, that "Jesus never said that, or how Hispanics are becoming Islamic because they "don't understand the Trinity." That is no secret that many Hispanics are converting to Islam.....but I seriously doubt it is for that reason. I will not comment further on that topic. My main point is that I cannot have a mature exchange regarding our religions because you, as a Muslim, do not believe the Bible. You believe some doddering old fool wrote whatever he wanted, that God did not inspire the prophets (saints) in my Bible, etc. So with your frame of mind, how could I possibly expect you to understand?
I have spent so many hours studying ancient writings, such as the Greek Septuagint, the writings of Flavius Josephus and the Jewish Antiquities, the Latin Vulgate, and all the more modern Bibles. I have a friend who is a scholar of the ancient writings, a Jesuit priest and professor at Fordham University in NY. We have had many conversations about these translations and the translators. I have no doubt regarding their authenticity and validity. I am sure you must realize portions of the original writings are still here on earth in museums....one I know of in particular, written on papyrus, is in a museum in Dublin, Ireland.
You know, Hasan, one thing which I really appreciate within the Catholic Church is our belief that God is a very mericful and just God. He loves us because we are His children....He created us. So Catholics believe that upon our death God calls to everyone of us to accept Him and believe. We also believe that He accepts into His Kingdom ALL THOSE who have lived their life in a moral, decent, and just manner. Many have never had the opportunity to learn of our God. Are they to be damned to Hell since their lack of knowledge is through no fault of their own? The Catholic Church says NO, and so do I (for whatever it is worth.) I believe God is very fair, and I believe at the end of our lives, or on Judgement Day, He will look at each person's heart, did they love their "brothers", were they moral and upright, were they intentionally evil? I believe people from ALL religions will be judged by our Almighty God and their fate will be determined based on how this person conducted himself/herself during their lifetime. In Heaven I believe I will find people from all faiths, even no faith IF they lived the best moral, just, kind, and upright life possible....as this is what God expects of all humans.
So we shall see, Hasan. I am sure you, based on your many messages to me, will certainly be in Paradise when your time comes around. I only pray that I will be there to see you. (I'm trying my best.)
God's Peace to You,
Patty
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
honeto
Senior Member Male Islam Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 2487 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dear Patty, I understand your frustration, but I must stick to the topic and to what we are trying to achieve here. The purpose of this forum as I understand is to learn, and to let others know what and how you understand and believe it be.
Morals and being good toward God's creation is a universal believe we all must practice as told in the Quran.
Please don't be afraid of questioning Islam, and Quran. If you have a question or comment please don't hesitate. Just look for appropriate topic or thread, if not found just start a new one.
And never think that you will affend anyone, unless you mean to do so.
I can of myself cannot decide who will be in paradise and who will be in hell fire, for me that is for God to decide. I only seek His mercy and forgiveness which I can expect if I know and serve Him correctly, which I can only do, if I base my action of serving him through knowledge and truth, which comes only through what I see, hear, learn and know about Him through what He has blessed me with, the capabilities of listening, seeing, thinking, analysing, and making judgements based on true obervations not internal or external fears and reservations.
I do believe in illusions of all being in paradise, as good and evil are not the same according to the Quran, and one of the biggest evil is directing one's worship to someone other than God. There are many others who will not enter paradise according to the Quran. Many don't like to hear that, but that's the truth whether we like it or not. Everything has a consequence. And in Islam, a person correects his conduct seeing the consequence it may bring him later.
Hasan
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Mansoor_ali
Senior Member Male Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Status: Offline Points: 584 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Is Jesus Yahweh? Jesus cannot be Yahweh. In Isaiah 44:24 it says that Yahweh was alone when he created the heavens and the earth. Matthew 12:18 quotes Isaiah 42:1 which says that Yahweh will send his servant. Who is that servant? It is Jesus. Now if Yahweh was the one true God (Exodus 20:2-3) who alone created the heavens and the earth and he was the one who was to send his servant (Jesus), then that means that Jesus is not Yahweh. This means that Jesus is not God. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PattyaMainer
Senior Member Female Joined: 03 August 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 352 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I did not mean to imply that sinners, those who do not follow the teachings and commandments of Our Lord will go to paradise. But it is all ultimately up to God to determine their fate. I as for forgiveness many times when I know I have strayed from the path God has told us to follow. I believe his promise that He will always forgive us if we only ask.
In my faith, which I believe in every bit as staunchly as you believe in Islam, we DO NOT worship, or pray to, ANYONE other than God....who is my religion is comprised of three totally separate entities which together comprise the Godhead, the Holy Trinity. They are all separate, yet they are all equal....they ARE God.
Here are as many verses as I have time for you to read at your leisure from the Bible:
1st. Note how Jesus always cast out demons, cured the sick, and did miracles in His own name. Also, on several occasions Jesus deliberately said; "I AM". This would never have been taken lightly by any Jew of Jesus' time. Think! Take for example Jesus� words in John 10:30, �I and the Father are one.� When first encountered, this might not seem to be a claim to be God. However, when we look at the Jews� reaction to His statement, �For a good work we stone thee not; replied the Jews, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.� (John 10:33). Now we see an actual claim. The Jews understood Jesus� statement to be a claim to be God. In the following verses, Jesus never corrects the Jews by saying, �I did not claim to be God.� That indicates Jesus was truly saying He was God by declaring, �I and the Father are one� (John 10:30). John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, "I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. " Again, in response, the Jews take up stones in an attempt to stone Jesus (John 8:59). Why would the Jews want to stone Jesus if He hadn�t said something they believed to be blasphemous, namely, a claim to be God? John repeatedly tells us of the Lord's connection to "I Am". See John: 4:26, 8:24, 8:28, 8:58,and 13:19. The Apostle Paul tells us that Jesus "..is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (Colossians 1:15-17) To try and grasp the Trinity, first understand that God the Father the Son and Holy Spirit are Spirit, light, awesomeness, power, justice and love -- and He in no way conforms to a human's understanding. Jesus told us God is Spirit. Shine two beams of light on the same spot, and you have the light of one, separate, yet also the same as the others. An example of Jesus' light and the Father's light as the same is at this true Near Death Experience here Next, try to grasp Jesus' nature as being both totally human and totally God. To help you with this consider these paradoxes by early church father Gregory of Nazianzus (329-390 A.D.). Gregory used these to argue against Arianism. Cyril of Alexandria (376 - 444 AD) says, �Indeed, the mystery of Christ runs the risk of being disbelieved precisely because it is so incredibly wonderful. For God was in humanity. He who was above all creation was in our human condition; the invisible one was made visible in the flesh; he who is from the heavens and from on high was in the likeness of earthly things; the immaterial one could be touched; he who is free in his own nature came in the form of a slave; he who blesses all creation became accursed; he who is all righteousness was numbered among the transgressors; life itself came in the appearance of death. All this followed because the body, which tasted death, belonged to no other but to him who is the Son by nature,� [On the Unity of Christ] And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14 (written: 712 BC (Before Christ) Jesus said: When many were about to stone Jesus for blasphemy But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. Psalm 110:1 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works." ( John 14:10) In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossians 1:14-17 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:24 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58 Not everyone who says to me, �Lord, Lord,� will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven Matthew 7:21 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel (means God Among Us). Once, a paralytic man was presented before Jesus for healing And immediately he rose up before them, and took up that whereon he lay, and departed to his own house, glorifying God Revelation 19:11-14 - speaking of Yeshua/Jesus leading the Army of Heaven: 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Jehovah shares His glory only with Jesus... In Isaiah 42:8 Jehovah himself is speaking, and He emphatically declares "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images." Again, in Isaiah 48:11, Jehovah is speaking, and He declares: "For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another." John 17:5 tells us Jesus said; "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." Of course that is Jesus speaking of being part of the Godhead Himself. Since God will not share His glory. And Jesus tells us He had this glory with Yahweh/Jehovah before creation. What more proof from Jehovah or the lips of Jesus do you want? The Scriptures bear unmistakable testimony to the creative activity of God's Son, distinguishing Him from among the "things" created, as the Creator and Sustainer of "all things." The Book of Colossians: The entire context of Colossians 1:15-27 is filled with superlatives in its description of the Lord Jesus as the "image of the invisible God, the first begetter [or according to Erasmus ''original bringer forth''] of every creature." The Apostle Paul lauds the Son of God as Creator of all things (v.16) and describes Him as existing "before all things" and as the one by whom "all things consist" (v.17). This is in perfect harmony with the entire picture Scripture paints of the Eternal Word of God (John 1:1), who was made flesh (John 1:14) and of whom it was written: "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:3). The writer of Hebrews also pointed out that God's Son "[upholds] all things by the word of his power" (Hebrews 1:3) and that He is Deity in all its fullness, even as Paul wrote to the Colossians: "For...in him should all fullness (of God) dwell" (Colossians 1:19) Reference for above, "Jehovah shares His glory only with Jesus..." -The Kingdom of the Cults (Walter Martin & Ravi Zacharias), page 96 WHAT ABOUT THIS "SON OF MAN" THING? The expression, �son of man,� was used in the Old Testament by Daniel as the term for the Messiah Who, at His second descent to earth at the end of this age, would come �...with the clouds of heaven� And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. Concomitantly, Jesus� favorite term for Himself was the �Son of Man� When Jesus was led before the council of the elders of the people I hope this will help you understand what I believe, and why I believe it. Peace, Patty |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Mansoor_ali
Senior Member Male Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Status: Offline Points: 584 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Response to Patty Verses Commonly Used to Try to Support the Doctrine of the Trinity
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
honeto
Senior Member Male Islam Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 2487 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Patty,
there is a lot in common between us as to how you believe about God's mercy and forgivenss. Then there are some very basic things we differ upon greatly.
In your long post above there is a small line that I want you to confirm for me, you said about Trinity:
"They are all separate, yet they are all equal....they ARE God."
I have two questions for you:
1-Is any one of the three (of the Trinity) has authority over the other or not?
2-Do you stand behind that statement of yours, and give me only two quotes from the Bible to support that claim of yours.
Thanks.
Hasan Edited by honeto - 30 December 2008 at 6:33pm |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PattyaMainer
Senior Member Female Joined: 03 August 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 352 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Hasan,
Now you have talked to me long enough to know that I stand behind all my statements regarding my beliefs, my faith. Here is one Scripture verse from I John 5-7:
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
And in Second Corinthians 13:14, I offer you this verse, Hasan:
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all."
Here we have the grace of the Son, the love of the Father, and the communion of the Holy Spirit. Are these three different God's? Are love, grace, and communion three different items? No. Love, grace, and communion are one element in three stages: love is the source, grace is the expression of love, and communion is the transmission of this love in grace. Likewise, Father God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are one God expressed in three Persons: Father God is the source, Christ is the expression of God, and the Holy Spirit is the transmission bringing God in Christ into man. So these are two verses which I stand firmly by in my belief of the Holy Trinity......ONE GOD in three stages.
God's Peace,
Patty
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Post Reply | Page <1 7891011 12> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |