Jesus was crucified according to historia |
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JerryMyers
Groupie Joined: 21 September 2016 Status: Offline Points: 65 |
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If 'I AM' means 'God', then Jesus is actually saying "God The Resurrection" !!
Yes, clearly Jesus said that because he was THE prophet of that time. Thus, naturally, those who listen and believe in him will be shown the way to eternal life and on the last day, God will raise them up (that is, elevate their status) above those who do not listen and believe in him. Likewise, Moses was THE prophet of his time. Thus, those who listen and believe in him will be shown the way to eternal life too and on the last day, God will elevate their status above those who do not listen and believe in their prophet.
Well, try reading Exodus 3:14 in context and tell me how John 8:58 can be a reference to it. If the connection is just because Jesus said “I am”, then, many people would also be God as I am (oops, did I just say "I am"??) sure everyone would have said “I am” many, many times in their lives.
Well, that’s what Christians believe BUT, is that what Jesus meant - that he's God or equal to God and that he died and rose again ?? I know Paul said you MUST believe Jesus died and rose again else your faith will be in vain BUT where in the whole Bible did Jesus say or imply the same ?? No where.
Hypostatic union, trinity, original sin, double nature of Jesus and what have you, well, there are all man-made doctrines or concepts. Why ? Because Jesus NEVER preached such concepts or doctrines.
Philip was confused ?? Not really. Read again John 14 in context to really understand. Philip was skeptical of Jesus’ claim that he was the way, the truth and the life as in saying so, Jesus was claiming absolute monopoly of access to God. Because of his skepticism on Jesus' claim, Philip requested Jesus to show God. This, of course, disappointed Jesus as he has been among them for so long and yet they still want to see God when they have seen God’s miracles thru him or to put it figuratively, seeing him will be the same as seeing (the presence of) God. To understand “Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me”, you must read at least, a verse earlier – “Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.” – John 14:10-11 Firstly, you should note that Jesus said “The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority” means Jesus on his own, has no authority or knowledge over what to preach or teach, other than what God had told him. Secondly, Jesus said “Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing His work” means the miracles, the work that Jesus did was not of his own initiatives or that he has divine power to perform miracles, BUT it was God’s work and miracles performed THROUGH Jesus. It’s the same when Moses was said to split the Red Sea, it’s was not because Moses has divine super-power, but, it was God who split the sea THROUGH Moses. The phrase 'living in me' does not literally mean God was living in Jesus, but it means the Spirit of God is with Jesus and guiding him in his works. Anyone who have complete faith in God and abide by His Rules are said to have the Spirit of God with them. So, when you understand the relationship between God and His prophets, then, you will understand that Jesus’ words “I am in the Father and the Father is in me” simply means Jesus have complete faith in God and God responded in return by having complete trust in Jesus and in the case of Jesus and Moses, that trust was translated by God performing His miracles and work THROUGH them. When you have complete faith in God, then, you are also said to be one with God. Likewise, when Jesus prayed for all his believers - “that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me” – John 17:21. In other words, Jesus prayed to God for all his believers that they may have complete faith in God (may be one) just as he has complete faith in God (and I am in you). Jesus also prayed for all his believers to have faith in him and God (May they also be in us) so that the whole world may believe that God have sent him. So, tell me, how can Jesus be actually ONE with God (as of the same nature, substance) when he had to pray (to God) for all his believers to have faith in him and God, so that they all can believe that he was sent by God ?? Why would Jesus had to pray for all his believers ?? The obvious answer would be because Jesus knew a growing number among his believers/followers are worshiping him as God and he prayed to God for them to have total faith in God so that they will believe that he’s not God but he was sent by God. |
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JerryMyers
Groupie Joined: 21 September 2016 Status: Offline Points: 65 |
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First, Muhammad never wrote the Quran and any logical and rational man will know Muhammad could not have written the Quran. Why ? It was not only because of the message the Quran was conveying, but because of its poetic literary characteristics and styles. You need to be proficient in the language of the Arabic Quran to fully appreciate and understand what I am trying to tell you. A small example would be the presence of palindrome sentences in the Quran. A palindrome, of course, is something that could be read from the left or the right and still carry the same meaning, for example, racecar or Bob. To make a palindrome out of a short word may be easy. To make a palindrome out of a longer word is hard, but to make a palindrome out of a sentence, that is extremely difficult, and you would need a long and editorial process to succeed here. And even if you succeeded in this you would still have to think of the context of the passage that you are putting the sentence into. Muhammad, being an illiterate, could not have come out with any palindrome sentence, let alone, to place that sentence into a passage without disturbing the context of that passage. Second, when Jesus said "So peace is on me the day I WAS BORN, the day THAT I DIE, and the day that I SHALL BE RAISED UP TO LIFE (AGAIN)", he was not talking about his ‘resurrection’ on earth as most Christians believe, he was referring to the Day of Resurrection when everyone (including himself) will be raised or in other words, every true believer believes in these 3 notable days of their life – the day they were born, the day they will die and the day they will be raised again. Every Muslims knew this and obviously, so did Jesus. So, where is your evidence that Jesus said these words just before his so-called ‘death’??
What is really clear here is that Jesus was not killed nor was he crucified but Allah raised him up to Himself just before the crucifixion.
Come on, get real !! Fact is - the Jews plotted to kill Jesus (John 11:45-47) and the Romans, being the Law of the day, carried out the trial and execution. In other words, they (the Jews and Romans) are accountable for the death of 'Jesus' or the man they believed was Jesus. Quran Surah Maryam 30-34 had nothing to do with the trial, the plot and the execution of ‘Jesus’, it’s about Jesus declaring who he was and that is, he is a prophet of God and indeed a servant of Allah who has made him blessed by making him kind to his mother and not overbearing or miserable, and he will be at peace the day he was born, the day that he die and the day he will be raised up again. Such was the man, Jesus, who spoke the truth but many (like the Christians today) vainly dispute his words. In saying he will be at peace the day he was born, the day that he die and the day he will be raised up again simply mean Jesus believe in life, death and the last day – the Day of Resurrection and these are beyond the knowledge of man, that is, no one knew or can decide when he will be born, when he will die and when will be the Day of Resurrection.
It is clear that Jesus is just a messenger of Allah and he was created by Allah’s Word just as when He created light with His Word when He willed the creation (of light) by saying, “Let there BE light” and there was light. Jesus had never preached trinity and thus, it’s better for everyone to stop saying that he’s part of a triune God. If the gospel of Christ is saying the same thing, then, yes, the Quran is in accordance to the gospel of Christ. And how was the gospel of Jesus all about his ‘death and resurrection’ ??? And since when Muhammad believe in Jesus’ ‘death and resurrection’ as understood by the Christians ?? See my explanation earlier on the Quran verses you quoted above.
Despite what the Christians’ claim and their interpretation of the verses you quoted above, the KEY question is still - when and where exactly in the Bible did Jesus himself (not of other people’s words) say he will become son of God after he died and resurrected or where in the whole Bible did Jesus say he came to die for the sins of all mankind ?? None ! If I am to give an analogy to the Christians’ claim of Jesus, I will say it’s like watching a soccer match where there’s lot of fancy footwork and excitements BUT no goals scored ! |
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abrahamic_seeker
Newbie Male Joined: 18 September 2018 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 10 |
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Look. Historical analysis is what has concluded that Jesus most probably did die on the cross. This doesn't mean that we have found scientific or acctual evidence that he died, more like the reports are so trustworthy that one can conclude that he most probably died. The most accepted view is that it was made so to appear to them in the sence that he wasn't put on the cross put people thought he was. This is completely compatible with history since the only thing we can find evidence for is that people really thought he did die, and after that we are making an assumption that he did die. I dont know why people care so much. The important thing is that they didn't kill him and that they didn't crucifie him. If that means that he did not die or that it was God who allowed them to kill him, as Jesus states in the gospels, doesn't really matter.
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2Acts
Senior Member Joined: 22 March 2015 Status: Offline Points: 143 |
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You
are wrong. As Peace maker stated, the historical testimony agrees in
broad-brush strokes with the gospels that Jesus was indeed crucified.
Read his post properly. Also you failed to answer his question – just
“Whose hands and feet are pierced in Psalm 22 ? And
in regards to your claim that Psalm 22:19 onwards is a prophesy God will rescue
and save Jesus it is basically a prayer of hope, nothing more. There is nothing
specifically about being rescued from the piercing of hands and feet that had
earlier occurred. If anything it is about the resurrection. Also Psalm 22 goes
on to say - 26
The poor will eat and be satisfied; they who seek the LORD will praise him— may
your hearts live forever! 27
All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the
families of the nations will bow down before him, 28
for dominion belongs to the LORD and he rules over the nations. 29
All the rich of the earth will feast and worship; all who go down to the dust
will kneel before him— those who cannot keep themselves alive. 30
Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord. 31
They will proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn— for he has done
it. The
psalmist is now addressing the impact of that person’s death on ‘posterity’ and
‘future generations’ (v.30). That is us living 2000 years later. He tells
us that ‘posterity’ which follows this
‘pierced’ man who died such a horrible death will ‘serve’ him and be ‘told
about him’. Verse 27 predicts the
geographic scope of the impact – it will go to the ‘ends of the earth’ and
among ‘all families of nations’ and cause them to ‘turn to the LORD’. Verse 29
indicates how ‘those who cannot keep themselves alive’ (since we all die would
that not be all of us?) will one day kneel before him. The righteousness of
this man will be proclaimed to people who were not yet alive (the ‘yet unborn’)
at the time of his death. Obviously
this is about the salvation of the world resulting from the crucifixion and
resurrection. It is obviously not about David. Just as the piercing of the
hands and feet was not about David. Gods supposed rescue of Jesus from the crucifixion in Psalm 20:6 is not clear as you state. What makes you think it is Messianic? What makes you think this is not about David being victorious? And if it is Messianic what makes you think it’s not about the victory of Christ through the resurrection? |
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2Acts
Senior Member Joined: 22 March 2015 Status: Offline Points: 143 |
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You are wrong. The crucifixion
IS historical FACT. Historical facts are indisputable and can be verified and
are based on primary sources which consist of documents, objects, and other
physical pieces of historical evidence that were created contemporary to the
time being examined.
The crucifixion is supported
in the scripture in the four Gospels / Injjel and in non Christian primary
sources contemporary with the time. We have primary evidence from Tacitus, Pliny
the Younger, Josephus, Lucian and the Babylonian Talmud. You haven’t even
addressed the point that it was not “just talk by other people at the time” but
actually eye witnesses. You were not an eye witness and neither were Muslims
who only came along centuries later. Your claim in Jesus only
anticipating his crucifixion, is not valid. Jesus said the Son of Man will be
handed over to be crucified means he will be crucified. He did not say … “ I expect or anticipate I will be crucified”.
So you admit in John
2.21 Jesus was talking about his body and indirectly implied his future
crucifixion and resurrection . Good. But then you wonder whether those verses
in John 2:21-22 are fabricated ! Interesting, So you can’t refute the
scriptural evidence so now you have to resort to the old “fabricated” argument
out of desperation. You do realise your Quran states the Injeel / Gospels are
truth. Surah 5:46 for example ? What you don’t seem to realise however is that John wrote his Gospel in the life time of all first generation believers. The enemies of the Christians (of which there were many at that time) would have been quick to seize upon and document any “fabrications” as you claim. You are wrong (again) about Mark 11.27 -33 being the same event as recorded in John 2.21. You actually need to be cross referencing to Mark 13. You state a sign is
not a “direct indicator”, maybe ?, maybe not ? But in this case you got it wrong.
Jesus himself gave the direct indicator of 3 days and 3 nights in Mathew 12.40.
your definition of a “direct indicator” is not valid. You state there’s
questions of Jesus being ‘in the belly of the earth’ as he was never buried but
placed in a tomb which cannot be described as ‘in the belly or heart of
the earth’. Let me explain it to you. Jesus
compared his death to Jonah, who was in the belly of the fish for three days
and three nights (Matt 12:40). Jonah had related his ordeal not only in terms
of having been swallowed by the great fish but also as having been "at the
roots of the mountains" (Jonah 2:6); that is, Jonah stated that "the
earth with its bars was around" him in the confines of Sheol (Jonah 2:6),
because he was physically dead in the belly of the great fish. That is, Jonah
was not in the ground (the grave), but his body was under water and his soul
was in the heart of the earth (and thus in Sheol). Jesus too was in Hades / Sheol which is the lower parts of the earth. As
believed in the ancient world. In other words, like Jonah, Jesus was in the
belly of the earth (Sheol) for three days and three nights. The comparison to
Jonah avoids ambiguity with the ground, because the body of Jonah was not
buried in the ground when he entered Sheol, ; thus the account of Jonah enables
us to understand that Sheol includes some location "in the heart of the
earth" as Jesus said (or to use Jonah's words, "at the roots of the
mountains"). Thus Jesus entered the same place as Jonah (Sheol/Hades) for
three days and three nights Regarding the 3 days
and 3 nights the Thursday in the account was the Day of Preparation, and
therefore the Passover (which starts the First Day of the Feast of Unleavened
Bread and is considered an automatic Sabbath day) had began at sunset on
Thursday and continued until Friday evening, when the "normal"
Sabbath had begun. Thus the Passover (First Day of the Feast of Unleavened
Bread) combined with the "normal" Sabbath created a 48-hour Sabbath,
since the Passover on this particular year had occurred on the very day just
before the "normal" Sabbath. In other words, the
body of Jesus lay in the grave for three days and three nights while at the
same time his soul remained in Sheol/Hades for three days and three nights. There is conclusive
proof in the Bible that when Jesus told the Jews he would be three days and
three nights in the earth, they took this to mean that the fulfillment of the
prophecy could be expected after only two nights. On the day after his
crucifixion, that is, after only one night, they went to Pilate and said - Sir, we remember how that impostor said, while he was still alive,
'After three days I will rise again'. Therefore order the sepulchre to be made
secure until the third day. Matthew 27.63-64. You are wrong about
there not being a single verse in the Bible in which Jesus said he was injured
due to the crucifixion after the resurrection. Read John 20:24-29 when Jesus
appeared to Thomas. For someone as yourself who claims to know the Bible you
should know this ! You are wrong that
the Sign of Jonah is about the fact that both Jonah and Jesus are thought to be
killed but, in reality, they are both very much alive throughout ‘the 3 days
and 3 nights’. You need to acquaint yourself with the story of Jonah and Gods
theme behind it. Its about repentance. Jesus
confirmed that Nineveh's repentance came about as a result of their full
knowledge of Jonah's ordeal of the preceding days. He made this quite plain
when he said:" Jonah became a sign to the men of Nineveh". Luke 11.30 Thus the great event
was the total repentance of the whole city, from its king to all its slaves,
when they heard the ominous warning. Nothing about pretending to die and
reappearing The Gospels are clear. They clearly record that Jesus was crucified and rose again. He demonstrated it. The disciple Thomas was just like you and Jesus himself had to prove it to him by showing him his wounds. He demonstrated it to Thomas. As
I said you’ve got Psalm 22 wrong. As Peace maker stated, the historical
testimony agrees in broad-brush strokes with the gospels that Jesus was indeed
crucified. Read his post properly. Also you failed to answer his question
– just “Whose hands and feet are pierced in Psalm 22 ? And
in regards to your claim that Psalm 22:19 on wards is a prophesy God will rescue
and save Jesus it is basically a prayer of hope, nothing more. There is nothing
specifically about being rescued from the piercing of hands and feet that had
earlier occurred. If anything it is about the resurrection. Psalm 22 goes on to
say - 26
The poor will eat and be satisfied; they who seek the LORD will praise him— may
your hearts live forever! 27
All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the
families of the nations will bow down before him, 28
for dominion belongs to the LORD and he rules over the nations. 29
All the rich of the earth will feast and worship; all who go down to the dust
will kneel before him— those who cannot keep themselves alive. 30
Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord. 31
They will proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn— for he has done
it. The
psalmist is now addressing the impact of that person’s death on ‘posterity’ and
‘future generations’ (v.30). That is us living 2000 years later. He tells
us that ‘posterity’ which follows this
‘pierced’ man who died such a horrible death will ‘serve’ him and be ‘told
about him’. Verse 27 predicts the
geographic scope of the impact – it will go to the ‘ends of the earth’ and
among ‘all families of nations’ and cause them to ‘turn to the LORD’. Verse 29
indicates how ‘those who cannot keep themselves alive’ (since we all die would
that not be all of us?) will one day kneel before him. The righteousness of
this man will be proclaimed to people who were not yet alive (the ‘yet unborn’)
at the time of his death. Obviously
this is about the salvation of the world resulting from the crucifixion and
resurrection. It is obviously not about David. Just as the piercing of the
hands and feet was not about David. Gods supposed rescue of Jesus from the crucifixion in Psalm 20:6 is not clear as you state. What makes you think it is Messianic? What makes you think this is not about David being victorious? And if it is Messianic what makes you think it’s not about the victory of Christ through the resurrection? |
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2Acts
Senior Member Joined: 22 March 2015 Status: Offline Points: 143 |
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Despite what the Muslims claim that Mohamad was the "comforter" the KEY question is still - when and where exactly in the Quran did Mohamad himself (not of other people’s words) say he is the "comforter" ?? None ! Sounds like an own goal to me !
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standinfaith
Starter. Male Joined: 26 November 2018 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 1 |
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The Quran instructs its followers to believe in the integrity of the Torah and Ingil, both of which give clear-cut evidence about the crucifixion death and subsequent resurrection of the Lord Jesus. For example: There are seven annual ‘appointed times’ mentioned in the Torah: 1.Passover 2.Unleavened Bread 3.Firstfruits 4.Pentecost 5.Trumpets 6.Atonement 7.Tabernacles Jesus literally fulfilled the first four of these in perfect alignment with the Hebrew calendar. Here is how he did this: 1. Jesus became our Passover lamb. He was crucified between 9 a.m. and 3 p.m. on the day of Passover, at the same time as the symbolic Passover lamb was being slaughtered by priests in the temple. 2. Jesus led a sinless life; he is our unleavened bread. 3. Three days after the burial of Jesus, God fulfilled first fruits by resurrecting Jesus’ dead body. 4. The Holy Spirit filled 120 disciples on the day of Pentecost, fulfilling this feast. The fulfillment of these prophetic, scriptural events is God’s proof to mankind that Jesus was crucified to death and then resurrected, just as the Bible teaches. |
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ZAHRA1234
Senior Member Female islam Joined: 10 August 2017 Location: Pakistan Status: Offline Points: 111 |
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nice sharing its amazing thanks
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