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Is there an Islamic response to John 3? |
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Redneck 
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Joined: 08 November 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 32 |
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 Posted: 15 November 2006 at 1:58pm |
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Peace to you,
You know I have heard that many times and the more I read about it the more logical it becomes. I can understand them wanting to translate it into Greek. To expand toward the East is a lot easier than going West with this message. I would have thought someone would have saved the original Hebrew at least long enough to make some copies and get them into circulation. Besides Saint Paul's plan was to spread the message of salvation to the Jews first as we see in Romans. For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek" (Romans 1:16). So translating it into Greek and burying the Hebrew doesn't make much seance. Besides we know that the Greeks were mired in all sorts of polytheistic ideas. So now you have the multitudes of millions of people reading a Jewish book with Greek glasses. Learning it as the Greeks would have interpreted it. Would leaving it in Hebrew have been detrimental to the message?
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Servetus
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Male Joined: 04 April 2001 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2109 |
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Posted: 15 November 2006 at 10:05am |
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Thank you brother BMZ and, with sons like us, I must say, it�s no wonder that dear old dad went lame in his arms from having to be always caning one or the other of us!
Thanks.
I think that some of us have just grown accustomed to an overly �rationalist� approach to scriptures. To my view, the underlying problem in many of these Interfaith, especially Christian and Islamic, discussions is not predominantly one of translation, though because translation is such an obvious factor it might seem so. I do suspect, and this is an admittedly rather unorthodox opinion of my own, that quite unlike the Quran, which, as I understand, claims to be for the most part straightforward (39:28) and clearly written in Arabic while not altogether devoid of allegories, much of both the New and Old Testament writings, especially the prophecies, are, even in their original languages, in a sense deeply encrypted and are meant to be comprehended primarily by those with the (spiritual) �eyes to see� and �ears to hear� (see, e.g., Matt 13:13 referring, in turn, to Isaiah 6:9). According to the written record of his ministry, Jesus was known to speak almost entirely in parables and at times riled the religious establishment with pointed if somewhat oblique references to certain members of that establishment, to their understandings, and to their practices (see, e.g., Matt 21:45). Sometimes that all seems very confusing, in and of itself.
I thought you might enjoy that.
And all of that according to prophecy ... Further concerning the issue of reportage, I have thought that however difficult or in fact impossible it might be to establish and substantiate the isnad, or chain of transmission of the written Gospel accounts (see, e.g., Luke 1:2), the fact remains that those Gospels stand upon the considerable merits of their own spiritual content. And they have so stood for 2,000 years. Best (and fraternal) regards, Serv Edited by Servetus |
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Cyril
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Joined: 08 May 2006 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 176 |
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Posted: 15 November 2006 at 9:47am |
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Not true. The prophets spoke Hebrew and Aramaic and their revelations were written down in Hebrew (a small part in Aramaic). That is the Old Testament. All other translations are made from that Hebrew original. As of the New Testament Jesus spoke mostly Aramaic. His teachings were written down in Greek (the English of the time). There is absolutely no way to know if the Greek version corresponds to the words of Jesus. From a religious standpoint, and only believers in religions can accept that, God is all-powerful and has protected his revelation. So from a religious point of view the Greek NT reflects exactly the sayings and teachings of Jesus. Same with the Quran. Religious people say it was delivered to Muhammad by an angel, and historians say it is a collection of various religious teachings from the 7th century, probably put together by Hanif circles. |
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Sarita
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Posted: 15 November 2006 at 6:27am |
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I guess John 3:16 is my biggest question, when it says he is the Son of God and whoever believes in Him will have eternal life. How can you see that and go against it? Edited by Sarita |
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BMZ
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Posted: 15 November 2006 at 3:41am |
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"OK,
So the KVJ is a mistranslation?" Yes, Redneck. Most of the translations have been mistranslated. BMZ |
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Redneck
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Posted: 14 November 2006 at 7:10pm |
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OK, So the KVJ is a mistranslation? |
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BMZ
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Posted: 14 November 2006 at 3:21pm |
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Dear brother Serv, That was a masterpiece and you wrote it so well and qualified so well. Had the Bible been translated in that style, there would, perhaps, not have been so much confusion at all. Thanks for the comments and I enjoyed the "Nasikh" part. Yes, from our Christian brothers' point of view the entire Jewish Holy Scriptures, in fact, stand abrogated by the reported writers of the reported gospels. Best Regards BMZ Edited by bmzsp |
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Servetus
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Posted: 14 November 2006 at 12:22pm |
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Although the subject is complex, I tend, at this point, to agree with Reepicheep�s reading. As I see it, the so-called �New� testament, when considered in total, seems a type of abrogation, or, in Islamic theological parlance, perhaps naskh, of the �Old� (see, e.g., Heb 9:16). Thus, apparent contradictions between the Old and New testaments, between the received Torah of Moses and the reported Gospel of Jesus, might be both read and at least somewhat satisfactorily resolved in that light. Paradox, as always with Christian doctrines, seems also to apply. Consider that certain aspects of the law of Moses may have been (I won't say) abolished by having been, in the person and work of Christ, fulfilled. It might be further kept in mind that, again as I see it, in much the same way that Islam claims a lineage which predates Muhammad and harkens back to Abraham as its progenitor, so too in Christianity the �law� of Moses and its attendant priesthood (of Aaron) becomes superceded by its antecedent, that of Melchisadek, the King of Peace, to whom Abraham himself paid tithe (Gen 14:17-20). To Christians there was, in sum, and as the writer of Hebrews (7:12) says, a change in the priesthood and thus also a corresponding change in the law (though the details of this change are argued to this day). By the way, wine (alcohol) was prohibited in the �Old� testament to those who had taken the Nazarite vow, or who were �set apart� or consecrated to God for a particular purpose: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=142&let ter=N Over and out ...
Serv |
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bmzsp wrote:
The prophets of yore spoke Hebrew and Aramaic, which were then translated into Greek, which became the Mother of All Translations which in turn, gave birth to many translations made in English and then into many other languages, from Originals in English.
