THE BIBLE SAYS TO WORSHIP JESUS IS IDOLAT

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 honeto wrote:

 PattyaMainer wrote:

 honeto wrote:

 PattyaMainer wrote:

 honeto wrote:

Patty, 
its interesting that when I quoted this verse in which Jesus says : " I am returning to my God and your God" or " that father is greater than I" you change your position there by saying because Jesus was in human form. Now when the devil is talking to him, you wants us to not take Jesus as the man form, rather as God form.
And by the way, it is ridiculous to assume that the devil, created by God will try to trick and ask God " if you do this (God) I will give you this and that. That is laughable. My 3rd, 5th and 7th grader all will be laughing when I tell them this later tonight.

God is not a joke Patty.  Truth is not always easy to come, yet its the only choice. And you don't have to butter it up, its that simple and flat. None of the God's prophets according to the records were diplomatic when it came to belief in one God. They were as clear and blunt as can be. They knew and were told to make things clear and warn of the consequences. There is not other way.
Only thing I showed you is the truth of the matter and the argument with proof from your trusted source.
You will be asked what and why you believed, and I will be asked the same. We will be justly dealt! word for word, act for act by the Almighty, that's how I believe.

By the way we don't need an intercessor to connect us to the Almighty. God is near to you and I than them.
Hasan 

I cannot explain the Trinity to you, Hasan.  It is three separate entities, persons, who come together to form ONE God.  Christians do NOT believe in multiple Gods.  What really bothers me is your statement that you will have children laughing at MY beliefs and religion.  I would never stoop to do such a thing to any child.  Yes, God is very near to me.  You are right on that one.  As I mentioned to you previously, we follow different paths.  Peace to you on your journey.  I spoke with two priests who told me it is impossible to explain the Trinity to Muslims for many reasons.  It is a difficult concept to be sure and takes great faith.  It is there in the Bible (not the word trinity, but the concept).  This is my last post to you because it is futile to even attempt to explain my beliefs, but mainly because you have become somewhat rude in your posts to me, and especially because of your comments regarding disrespecting my religion to the point of having young children laugh.  I would never resort to disrespecting any religion to a child.  What a shame you feel that is great fun.

Patty,
I am sorry that it bothered you what I have said. And let me tell you, my kids 7,9, and almost 12 are very respective to all regardless. They are also very advanced kids in term of learning. These are kids that start reading at age 3 1/2- 4. They are homeschooled. My 7 year old is a 3rd grader. They know about major world beliefs since they were 3-4 years old. Apart from what they believe, they can tell you what a Hindu worships, a Catholic, a Christian or a Jew. And they also know what and who is God. They also know its not a joke talking about God.
As I went home that day. Before our Isha Salath, which we do together I told them that today I have a question for them and I asked them this question: "According to a Catholic lady, a friend of mine, the Devil, a creation of God, is offering to God, great rewards for serving and worshipping him, how does that sounds to you?" 
You know they did not laugh, and I am sorry if said they would, very seriously and without blinking they said, "that's silly" my oldest one further added that God has command over all, including the Devil who depends on God. How can he dare to do that, its silly, she said seriously.
So true, devil can never dare to trick, or lower God into some reward for serving him. God serving devil, the one created by God, no my dear you are gravely mistaken and anyone who says so.
Now if you say that Devil tried to lower Moses or Jesus or any of God's prophets and offer some reward for that, I can understand that and it would not be untrue. Many of us fight with the devil on a second to second basis thes days due to abundance of his council. 
But regardless of being in any religious context, it is obsurd to claim that a creation will try to offer something, trick and overcome its creator.  And we are talking about 'The CREATOR.'

Wish you the Best.
Hasan 

Every Muslim knows from childhood that Christians believe in three Gods. He is constantly warned about committing this "sin of sins". The fact that there is a Father, Son and Holy Spirit sounds like blasphemy to a Muslim and is synonymous with breaking the first commandment: "You shall not have any other gods before me." Anyone who confesses that there are one or two god-like persons beside Allah commits an unforgivable sin. This coincides with the sin against the Holy Spirit (Sura al-Nisa 4:48 and 116). 
A Muslim does not know the reality of the triune God, nor does he want to know it. He rejects it decidedly. A Muslim feels repelled when Christians try to explain the Trinity to him. "Three cannot be one, and one is not three," is their stereotyped answer. Allah in Islam does not need a helper, mediator or partner. He alone is great. No one is like Him. 
A divine triumvirate could, in the eyes of a Muslim, bring the possibility of an insurrection of one God against the other. Jealousy, ambition, hate and criticism would be unavoidable. At the head of a Muslim country there is usually just one ruler. Rivals are executed. In the same way Allah can only be one. 
The mystery that our God is love remains hidden to Muslims. The Father loved the Son before all time. He is not an egoist who only loves Himself. Through Him, the "Word," He created the universe. After Jesus' substitutionary death of reconciliation, the Father bestowed all power in heaven and on earth into the hands of the risen conqueror. The Holy Spirit today is completing the work of the Son in His church. Muslims see none of this. They also do not understand that the Holy Spirit never glorifies Himself, but the Son, and the Son continually honours the Father, who has set the Victor over sin, death and hell at His right hand. Such spiritual relationships in the Holy Trinity are completely foreign to a Muslim. He does not want to understand the words of Jesus: "I and the Father are one", or "the Father is in Me and I in Him." Love, humility and self-denial, in Islam, do not emerge as roots of every spiritual authority. Allah is different. He is the only one exalted from beginning to end, solitary and unreachable. 
According to Islamic faith, Allah is the unquestioned ruler and despot who reigns arbitrarily. No one knows why he leads some to paradise, or why hell is the destiny of others. A Muslim prostrates himself on the ground before Allah like a slave before his master, who does not know whether he will be apportioned life or death, grace or damnation. He longs for mercy and his honest intent to worship the only true God earnestly brings no assurance of everlasting life. 

God's Peace Always,
Patty 

Patty,
sorry I was away for a few days, but here I am to respond to your statements. I notice some of your statments are not so characteristic of you and I must correct you on those.

you wrote: Every Muslim knows from childhood that Christians believe in three Gods. He is constantly warned about committing this "sin of sins". The fact that there is a Father, Son and Holy Spirit sounds like blasphemy to a Muslim and is synonymous with breaking the first commandment: "You shall not have any other gods before me." Anyone who confesses that there are one or two god-like persons beside Allah commits an unforgivable sin. This coincides with the sin against the Holy Spirit (Sura al-Nisa 4:48 and 116). 

I must say Patty, you are wrong on that. First not all Muslims teach their kids how others believe, many in fact don't teach their kids about their own while many others do. So its incorrect  for you so think that that's how all Muslims teach their kids.  I grew up in a Muslim country with our front door Christian neighbors very close to us ineveryday life. We never try to convince or counter religion with them. All we knew that they believe God has a son. My best friend in college back home was a Christian, all if I ever heard was that they believe that God has a son. That's all I knew about him. It was not until I came here that I heard that the son also being God.
I have mentioned this before, my wife is also a former Christian, and I know of many other former Catholics (hispanics) who are now Muslims. They tell me that trinity was always a mystry to them as they were told how it is, In Islam they say now they are free of that mystry. Now this is not Muslims who are came up with, these are people who all their lives were believing in trinity, yet did not understand or grasped it.
To any Christian that I have encoutered, and I did many, this was a great challange when I asked them about explaining it. After being unable to do so, just like you said "I cannot explain the Trinity to you, Hasan" they will just invite me to come to their church, and that's it.
I do not teach my kids that Christians believe in three gods, rather how Christians say it themselves. That God is One, who has a son, Jesus and supported by the Holy Spirit. And they understand that, they just cannot see that to be true. They say, God cannot and does not have a son. If God has a son than He is not God, because God is above these kind of things we human can have. They also say, that if God has a son, and a Mother as you and Catholics believes then there is more than three. God the Mother should be first, God the Father, then comes God the Son and then the Holy Spirit. They also say what happened to God the Grandmother, and God the Grandfather, and you know all of the above. So, its a never ending thing. Thus we believe what is without mystry and evident reality, One God. No nothing else beside him as god. No ifs no butts. You got that right there is none like God, period. God does not need anything and anyone, the only One Free of All Wants and Needs.

You also wrote:

The mystery that our God is love remains hidden to Muslims. The Father loved the Son before all time. He is not an egoist who only loves Himself. Through Him, the "Word," He created the universe. After Jesus' substitutionary death of reconciliation, the Father bestowed all power in heaven and on earth into the hands of the risen conqueror. The Holy Spirit today is completing the work of the Son in His church. Muslims see none of this. They also do not understand that the Holy Spirit never glorifies Himself, but the Son, and the Son continually honours the Father, who has set the Victor over sin, death and hell at His right hand. Such spiritual relationships in the Holy Trinity are completely foreign to a Muslim. He does not want to understand the words of Jesus: "I and the Father are one", or "the Father is in Me and I in Him." Love, humility and self-denial, in Islam, do not emerge as roots of every spiritual authority. Allah is different. He is the only one exalted from beginning to end, solitary and unreachable. 
This is more of an attack and not expected of someone like you Patty, did someone hijacked you name, or someone else is speaking behind you? 

No God's love is not hidden from us the Muslims. You are 100% wrong to say that Muslims say that God only loves himself, or that God has ego. That is just your thoughts and not the truth at all.  We Muslims are aware of God's love for humanity that He has bestowed upon us since Adam, in form of his guides and guidance.
We understand that His love is abundent, and it was his love for us that He sent us the guidance and the last testament, the Quran. Its upto us to answer that call of love and salvation with humbleness and truth, or keep living in love for ourself and in ignorance to our own loss.
We understand that if we don't answer to his call before the angel of death takes our soul, we will have no part in the herafter, thus be among the loosers.

Further you said: Allah is different. He is the only one exalted from beginning to end, solitary and unreachable

Wrong again dear Patty, this is how close God is to all of us, 
Quran 50:16"It is (God) Who created man, and (God) knows what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein."
3:76 "Nay.- Those that keep their plighted faith and act aright,-verily Allah loves those who act aright."

Hasan 

My Dear Hasan,

I apologize if I have offended you.  It is my own lack of verbal ability to accurately explain to you what you have been asking about.  It frustrates me deeply, because I am such a devout Catholic and Christian, yet I seem to fail miserably in my efforts to explain my faith to you.  Also, I had learned that a dear friend of mine was found dead in her home, and I have been saddened by this tragedy.

You see, Hasan, I think I have mentioned this before, but on an Islamic website I cannot (or will not) out of respect say anything questioning about your religion.  There are many things in the Qur'an which appear contradictory or inaccurate, even violent toward infidels, to me.  But that aside, the more I attempt to explain or enlighten you regarding why Catholics believe, worship, think the way we do, the more I am met with more statements telling me how my Bible is corrupt, that "Jesus never said that, or how Hispanics are becoming Islamic because they "don't understand the Trinity."  That is no secret that many Hispanics are converting to Islam.....but I seriously doubt it is for that reason.  I will not comment further on that topic.  My main point is that I cannot have a mature exchange regarding our religions because you, as a Muslim, do not believe the Bible.  You believe some doddering old fool wrote whatever he wanted, that God did not inspire the prophets (saints) in my Bible, etc.  So with your frame of mind, how could I possibly expect you to understand?  

I have spent so many hours studying ancient writings, such as the Greek Septuagint, the writings of Flavius Josephus and the Jewish Antiquities, the Latin Vulgate, and all the more modern Bibles.  I have a friend who is a scholar of the ancient writings, a Jesuit priest and professor at Fordham University in NY.  We have had many conversations about these translations and the translators.  I have no doubt regarding their authenticity and validity.  I am sure you must realize portions of the original writings are still here on earth in museums....one I know of in particular, written on papyrus,  is in a museum in Dublin, Ireland.  

You know, Hasan, one thing which I really appreciate within the Catholic Church is our belief that God is a very mericful and just God.  He loves us because we are His children....He created us.  So Catholics believe that upon our death God calls to everyone of us to accept Him and believe.  We also believe that He accepts into His Kingdom ALL THOSE who have lived their life in a moral, decent, and just manner.  Many have never had the opportunity to learn of our God.  Are they to be damned to Hell since their lack of knowledge is through no fault of their own?  The Catholic Church says NO, and so do I (for whatever it is worth.)  I believe God is very fair, and I believe at the end of our lives, or on Judgement Day, He will look at each person's heart, did they love their "brothers", were they moral and upright, were they intentionally evil?  I believe people from ALL religions will be judged by our Almighty God and their fate will be determined based on how this person conducted himself/herself during their lifetime.  In Heaven I believe I will find people from all faiths, even no faith IF they lived the best moral, just, kind, and upright life possible....as this is what God expects of all humans.  

So we shall see, Hasan.  I am sure you, based on your many messages to me, will certainly be in Paradise when your time comes around.  I only pray that I will be there to see you.     (I'm trying my best.)

God's Peace to You,
Patty