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King Abd�ullah: Was this smart? |
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Shasta'sAunt 
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 Posted: 08 June 2008 at 1:05am |
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"The king also presented Benedict with a small silver and gold statue depicting a palm tree and a man riding a camel." Frankly I find this more unIslamic than presenting a sword. The Saudi monarchy does not represent Islam for me. As a Muslim I find that any "Muslim" head of state who demands sujjud from his subjects is verging on shirk. Not to mention the hand kissing.... |
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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt |
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Chrysalis
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Posted: 08 June 2008 at 6:10am |
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Although I find nothing unislamic with presenting a sword . . . or the camel/tree thing . . .
The latter part I agree with a 100%.
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Chrysalis
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Posted: 08 June 2008 at 6:35am |
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I would like to clarify in the beginning by saying that I do not agree with the policies of the Saudi Monarchy . . . niether do I believe they are the representatives of Islam.
I may personally agree/disagree with the church decision, heres how banning religous places of worship can be justified:
1. You said the mosque should be a centre for the community, not a shell for show. . . agreed a 100%. Nobody here said otherwise.
2. Just because a place is small, doesnt justify it having places of worship. UNLESS there r other reasons. So by saying that the Vatican is small, you cannot justify it not having other places of worship whilst blaming the Saudis.
3. You ask why the Saudi's hire non-muslims from othert countries as foriegn workers if they are not willing to provide them churches . . . . . One may put the same question to the Foriegn Workers. They GO there for materialistic reasons i.e Jobs. Nobody forces them. They go there with prior knowledge that Arabia will not have places of worship . . . They can always CHOOSE not to go, and instead the religous workers can opt for the other large number of countries that demand them.
If they have a problem with a lack of churches . . . They shouldnt go. So you cannot say they r being suppressed bcz Saudi doesnt hav churches. Its a public fact. (The treatment, cruelty etc is another issue altogether which no one condones)
4. I dont understand what u mean by referring to the neo-colonial, secular example.
5. ONE of the major reasons why I believe the Saudi's do not allow any missionary work or other places of worship is because Mecca & Medina are the hub of Muslim pilgrims from all over the world. This includes many unaware, illetrate muslims with little knowledge of Islam as well as new converts . . . . Allowing the preaching of other religions causes possibilities of these Muslims being influenced. Also, since Mecca and Medina is where muslims from all over the world congregate . . . Any knowledge, innovations that may be spreading among them NEEDS to monitored by the Saudis. So that innovations in Islam are prevented.
6. You may not know . . .but the Government ALSO keeps a strict check on any pamphlets, books that MUSLIMS bring there as well. There are many so called sects being formed, and this is to prevent them preaching thier twisted knowledge there. Muslims are not allowed to take personal prayer books there either. And the Security also keeps a strict check on ppl performing innovations there . . .Some ppl go overboard when they see the Kabaah for the first time and start clinging to it, or taking pieces of the cloth away . . .THAT is also banned. . . because this is on the verge of Shirk (idolatorous behaviour) and thus is banned. Why u may ask? So OTHER muslims there dont mistake it as the 'correct' behaviour and go back with unislamic knowledge bcz they say this happening in Mecca. Islam is very strict about spreading innovations in the religion.
SO, EVEN the MUSLIMS religous activities are monitored. NOT only the nonmuslims.
7. The case of Mecca & Medina HOWEVER cannot be applied to Muslim countries all over the world. . . .because Islam respects the right to build places of worship, and allowing them to practise thier religion. In Islam . . .the demolition of places of worship is strictly prohibited. . . whether they be churches, temples or synagogues. The prohibition of non-muslim places of worship is ONLY applicable to the Haram Sharif which is in Saudi Arabia.
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Sign*Reader
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Joined: 02 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 3352 |
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Posted: 10 June 2008 at 12:32am |
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Chrysalis is in black me in brown
2. Just because a place is small, doesnt justify it having
places of worship. UNLESS there r other reasons. So by saying that the 3. You ask why the Saudi's hire non-muslims from othert
countries as foriegn workers if they are not willing to provide them churches .
. . . . One may put the same question to the Foriegn Workers. They GO there for materialistic reasons i.e Jobs. Nobody forces
them. They go there with prior knowledge that If they have a problem with a lack of churches . . . They shouldnt go. So you cannot say they r being suppressed bcz Saudi doesnt hav churches. Its a public fact. (The treatment, cruelty etc is another issue altogether which no one condones) Pope has tabled the issue only
the time will tell and the king is not going to consult any of us! ----Saudis top
the world in materialistic practices, what European/ American Judeo Christian run/ owned franchise is not
facing the Haram sharif ? As Americans souls are in the hands of Jews the Saudi's souls are withe the Americans! Have you seen what goes on the inside of the gated communities in Saudi? The American Embassy is crawling with Jews and they have no control over it! I have been told by the Saudis beg to be invited to their parties so they can get some booze! The Saudis are in love with Jews more so than the Saudis themselves! 4. I dont understand what u mean by referring to the neo-colonial, secular example. What I mean by the neo colonials controls
means which Muslim country is free to function as a law and order model? Won�t
you agree 5. You don�t need to elaborate; have
been there and I know all about that police state! It is the Saud that is forcing
the an innovation to begin with ��Duh��.Everybody knows that non Muslims are not
to be allowed in the Haram�s precinct who is debating that? 6. You may not know . . .but the Government ALSO keeps a
strict check on any pamphlets, books that MUSLIMS bring there as well. There
are many so called sects being formed, and this is to prevent them preaching
thier twisted knowledge there. Muslims are not allowed to take personal prayer
books there either. And the Security also keeps a strict check on ppl
performing innovations there . . .Some ppl go overboard when they see the
Kabaah for the first time and start clinging to it, or taking pieces of the
cloth away . . .THAT is also banned. . . because this is on the verge of Shirk
(idolatorous behaviour) and thus is banned. Why u may ask? So OTHER muslims
there dont mistake it as the 'correct' behaviour and go back with unislamic
knowledge bcz they say this happening in SO, EVEN the MUSLIMS religous activities are monitored. NOT only the nonmuslims. You must be kidding; There is no way some one can cling to
the granite walls of Kabbah! may get run over! Have you tried it yourself? The amount of corruption amongst
Saudis is beyond the pale of the Mutawas my dear! I know how religious were Saudi I
had tons of them as school mates who practically lived at the bars as if they
had found paradise ! I am glad they are cooped up there after 9/11 Do you know Saudis
yourself? As a matter of fact they have destroyed
the Islamic heritage in their pursuit of commercialism! Edited by Sign*Reader - 10 June 2008 at 10:56am |
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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Chrysalis
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Joined: 25 November 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2033 |
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Posted: 10 June 2008 at 1:24am |
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I really don't care if/why Abdullah went to the Pope's office. Probably lobbying, political relations, trying to improve saudi-christian ties . . . irrelevant. So who's saying the Saudi govt doesnt have its interests to look after? Like I said. . .I'm not defending the saudis. Those were simply my views as to why lack of churches in Saudi could be justified.
Nothing wrong with being materialistic. When I said the Foriegn Workers go there for materialistic reasons, I meant that there priority at that time is work/jobs. . . not following religion. Which is why they are willing to fore-go thier rights to go to church for that time period. Hence its there personal choice. Like I said, no body is forcing them to work in Saudi. They have a huge job-market in other countries as well, where churches are present. They can opt to work there. The reason they go to Saudi is because they get paid well.
And I think there is nothing islamically wrong with non-muslim owned franchises, as long as they do not violate islamic principles otherwise (halal/haram etc) Its similar to trading. . . And again . . .Islam is not against materialism, it is against other vices associated with the material world. I could not agree more that Saudia Arabia is materialistic. . .so are other countries, and they need to be to survive. Agreed?
However, commercialization of religous places is something that can be termed wrong or unislamic. . . And whoever does that, Incl Saudi Arabia. . . Im against that.
Depends on what your interpretation of 'better law and order' is. Was there peace? No. Were ppl satisfied/happy? No. Perhaps for a few yrs in the middle of colonization there may hav been a feeling of resignation. But history books will show u random spurts of unrest throughout. Again, was there equal treatment of races? No. There was elitism, suppression whatnot. The Law was for the weak. No 'Natives Title' etc etc. Would I say that Pakistan has better law today? In all honesty no. . . but just bcz things r not well now doesnt mean Colonization was 'better'. Both are ragged in thier own ways. Very detailed. . .
And which innovation are you talking about? Btw, there are 2 kinds of innovation in islam . . .the good and the bad. Clearly, any innovation that prevents bad-innovations - is a good innovation.
During the less-populous or should I say off-seasons my friend, one can get closer to the Kaabah and other places than usual. It is less croweded then. And ppl sometimes react a bit too emotinally or hysterically at this wondrous moment. 'Shurta's can be seen hurrying them along . . . or correcting them.
The Saudi's like any other nation have thier share of the good and the bad. Shockingly, yes. . .even Saudis can be corrupt. So whats the big deal? And why is it so out of the ordinary or surprising that it is worth mentioning again and again? Isnt it understood? You will find corruption wherever u find humans.
Who is debating/discussing piety? Why do you expect Saudis to have anymore piety or spirituality than you or I? They are humans, and not infallible due to thier 'arab' descendance. Yes, so some Saudi's may be correct/non-religous. Big whoop! I dont find that out of the ordinary, since they are humans after all and so are bound to have thier own mischief-makers.
Even if I do. . .the list will probably not be as long as yours, considering you have met/known intimatley 'tons' of Saudis. Despite that my friend, you have the narrow-sight to brand an entire nation based on your own experiences? If like you say you have known so many Saudi's, you must have come across many good examples. Bcz even though I knw a few, I knw they have thier share of good ppl. Perhaps, your experience is scarce after all . . .since you have only met a certain 'type' of Saudis . . . perhaps you should widen your circle. . . or make friends frm a better crowd, so you may have a glance at the 'better side' as well.
Last time I checked, my driver who has 10 kids to support, and works on a minimum wage, was able to go perform Hajj-e-badal for the 2nd time Alhamdulilah. I believe there are numerous packages according to affordability. However, I may be wrong . . .and if the Saudi's are using Hajj as a commercial tool, they are going against the essence of Islam and noone is supporting thme in that here. But I DO knw that the Saudi Monarchy despite being wrong in many things DOES take care of the Haajis quite a lot, at thier own expense. From food, water, essenials to transport. . . whn we see the bad in ppl, we should also have the guts to admit thier good as well.
Shirk is bad. Again, nobody is supporting them in that. No disagreement there at all. Edited by Chrysalis - 11 June 2008 at 6:42am |
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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Shasta'sAunt
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Female Joined: 29 March 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1930 |
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Posted: 10 June 2008 at 6:54pm |
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"Won�t you agree
Better law and order for whom? The ruling colonials or the enslaved Pakistanis?
I do have to agree with Sign Reader about the cost of Hajj. From the U.S., even if you go with a group package, sharing your room, etc, it is still over $6000.00 and that doesn't include everything. To many Muslims in this country that is alot of money.
But I have known alot of Saudis and most of them are very warm, sweet, and extermely hospitable. They cannot help being born in Saudi anymore than I could help being born in the U.S. and they certainly aren't responsible for what the monarchy does.
When people agree to go work in Saudi, I have a friend teaching there right now, they know that there are no churches, etc... This is not kept secret. They also know that they have to follow a dress code and a code of conduct which means no drinking, no pork, etc... They choose to go there because they get paid huge amounts of money and lots of fringe benefits that they would never get anywhere else. If you know you are going to work in a country that has such restrictions, and choose to go anyway, then you shouldn't complain when you get there or if you personally find it that bad, leave.
I have to say, are people getting dumber, or what? Some of the arguments on here are just monumentally ignorant. People go to Saudi to work then get upset because there are no churches, so this sovereign country which has every right not to have churches, comes under fire. If you want to work some place with easy access to YOUR own house of worship if it is other than Islam, don't go work in Saudi Arabia. Is that SO hard to grasp?
Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 10 June 2008 at 7:08pm |
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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt |
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Hamzah
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Joined: 04 April 2008 Location: Saudi Arabia Status: Offline Points: 85 |
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Posted: 11 June 2008 at 5:44am |
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Assalam Alaikum
The costs of preforming Hajj have little to do with the Saudi Government, it depends on the grp you travel with, here in Saudi Arabia you can preform Hajj from as low as 200 USD up to 4000 USD the Hajj visa is free, a plane ticket to Saudi Arabia will coust something in the region of 1000-1500 USD, the problem with living in places like the states is that you don't have so many options of Hajj groups, so the price tends to be high due to the fact that these Hajj group orginisers have not so much competition while in countries such as egypt if you take away the price of the plane tickets, the price would be 10 times less. Edited by Hamzah - 11 June 2008 at 5:47am |
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"Whosoever fears Allah, he will appoint for him a way out, and provide for him from where he does not expect"
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Shasta'sAunt
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Posted: 12 June 2008 at 2:19am |
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Even if the plane ticket cost is $1500.00 U.S., that's still $4500.00 plus for accomodations, which are sometimes a tent. That's just crazy.
Groups are already starting to advertise: $4800.00 per person and you have to share your room and/or tent with three other people. This is the cheapest deal I have been able to find, and you have to book now online, and it doesn't include the airfare to New York, the hajj fees, any taxes, fuel surcharges, any food, or the Qurbani. And the fuel surcharge can be what ever amount they choose to add.
So, for any muslim in the U.S. to perform Hajj this year, even purchasing the cheapest group ticket and sharing with three strangers, will cost at least $7000.00.
Are you honestly saying that government has no control over costs in Saudi Arabia. Especially for those performing Hajj? I didn't realize Saudi was a free market enterprise.
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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt |
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Shasta'sAunt wrote: