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Muhammad as a partner with Allah |
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Akhe Abdullah 
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Male Joined: 19 November 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1252 |
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 Posted: 10 December 2009 at 6:39am |
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Salams,Hasan
 May Allah Bless you and May Allah Bless the rest of our brothers and sisters who continue to fight the falsehoods.
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Hayfa
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Female Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2368 |
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Posted: 10 December 2009 at 8:27am |
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It's hard to believe that every one of Muhammad's many battles was in
self-defense; but if so, I think you need to ask yourself why he needed to defend himself so much. Why was a supposedly peaceful man was so widely hated in the region?
Ron: hew was not "hated" in the region.. goodness heavens.. Lots of people who say the truth are hated.. that is st**id to make. People who question the status quo are at risk. You think Jesus (PBUH) was beloved by people who ruled? Think like whistle blowers.. etc. If you threaten peoples' control and power. It was not regional, it was local.. local with the Quereshi. And how many battles do you think he fought? Dude you just like ot argue.. with no facts in mind. |
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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Ron Webb
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Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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Posted: 12 December 2009 at 8:11am |
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This whole discussion is about interpretation, yours and mine. I guess it would be unfair if I were arbitrarily saying that certain verses are obsolete just to make my theory work. But I'm not doing that. Allah makes it very clear that Muhammad was just a man, not a god; so I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that Allah intended us to "obey the Messenger" as a man, not a god. There is no other man whose commands continue to be obeyed long after his death. If Allah had intended otherwise for Muhammad, He would have said so very explicitly.
I agree that "obsolete" may be the wrong word. I have said from the beginning that while "obey the Messenger" might have included the command to his contemporaries to accept him as their leader, the application of that command is different for us. We can no longer look to him for leadership because he is dead, but we can still obey him by obeying his message.
Not necessarily obsolete, but applied differently as I said above. If obeying the messenger means obeying the Message, then it is worth repeating for emphasis.
Believe that he was coming, of course. Certainly not to believe in his hadith, which didn't even exist yet. And by the way, once again we see a reference to "the Scripture and Wisdom", and clearly here "wisdom" does not refer to the hadith. The Scripture is wisdom.
Well, obviously excluding everyone before Muhammad's time, so why not after as well? That's one of the unanswered questions about all prophetic religions: why would God allow the world to muddle along for thousands of years before deciding to reveal his "timeless" wisdom?
Sura 53:3-4 keeps getting quoted out of context, and I keep having to remind Muslims (who surely ought to know this!) that Sura 53 is the story of the revelation of the Quran. Muhammad did not say anything "of his own desire" when reciting the Quran. To suppose that he never said anything of his own desire in his entire life is frankly demeaning -- it makes Muhammad into some kind of automaton, not a real man but a mere machine with no free will at all.
"Due respect" is fine. To me, shirk is about attributing to him power and authority equivalent to a God. That is what "setting up partners" implies to me, and what I think shirk warns us against.
But that delegated authority is not the same as Allah's authority. It is always limited to specific people and specific times, and it never extends beyond the authority's lifetime. Moreover, there is no suggestion of infallibility. Parents are sometimes wrong, as we all know. If you believed that Muhammad's authority is/was like that, then I agree that would not be shirk.
Let me assure you that Canada has its share of political problems, both internal and external (try living with the U.S. as your next-door neighbour!). We even have the occasional armed standoff with our aboriginal population (rarely -- maybe half a dozen or so that I can think of in the past few decades). But in my entire lifetime I can recall only one incident that could be described as a "violent protest" (the FLQ crisis in Quebec). I can also assure you that violent protest over some silly cartoons or a book of fiction is so far beyond our imagining that it would be ridiculous if it weren't so tragic. IMHO it takes a special kind of insanity that can only be induced by religion. (But we're way off topic.)
Right. That standard, the "constitution" as you call it, is the Quran. The details of how we want to live according to that standard, the "laws", are collectively agreed upon by people, using their intellect and conscience to conform with current circumstances. Muslims want to live according to laws that were formulated in the seventh century. It just doesn't work, as we see over and over again in fundamentalist Muslim countries.
Again, guidance and inspiration are fine, but Malcolm X etc. are no longer anybody's leader, and nobody (I hope) would argue that we have to do something just because they did it.
That's okay, fancy formatting is overrated anyway; but note that you can add italics and bold with BBCode. (If I had time I would open a separate topic on this.)
You assume that it was repealed, but where is the hadith that repealed it? Was it lost?
I don't think that would help. The process can only work for hadith that are known. It can't do anything about hadith that no one collected. Such as for instance the hadith that presumably abrogated the command to kill dogs.
Yes I do. Islam was fully implemented within Muhammad's lifetime. There is a big difference between implementing a new religion and teaching it to individuals. |
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Ron Webb
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Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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Posted: 12 December 2009 at 8:23pm |
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Well, in Muhammad's time, it may have been considered acceptable for them to have their enemies assassinated. Today that is frowned upon. Luckily, the rich and powerful now have recourse to high-priced lawyers or mass media smear campaigns instead.
Nothing really, but people keep asking me what's wrong with using Muhammad as a role model in the twenty-first century, and I felt that I couldn't avoid the question any longer.
Wikipedia lists 35 of them. It also says: "The sum total of all casualties on all sides in all the battles of Muhammad range from 1200 to 1500 dead according to the most authoritative sources." Edited by Ron Webb - 12 December 2009 at 8:24pm |
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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honeto
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Male Islam Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 2487 |
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Posted: 12 December 2009 at 8:40pm |
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Ron,
again I must say, you don't live in the real world. You live in a world of your own, and that's fine, you are not alone. You will find many friends who can share with you that trade. How one country's leader is chased and hanged for allegedly killing innocent people while another country's leader orders and kills millions of innocent people in other countries and live a guilt free life. But you will never get it my friend, because you, like I have said proved so far to have been living in your own world, you cannot bear to live by one standard or truth. So keep on.... dear. Hasan Edited by honeto - 12 December 2009 at 8:43pm |
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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truthnowcome
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Joined: 05 April 2007 Status: Offline Points: 1045 |
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Posted: 12 December 2009 at 11:14pm |
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Ron it was already proven:
Commenting on the above verses Imaam ash-Shaafi'ee's said: "Allah has mentioned that 'the book' (Al-Kitaab) which is the Quran and he mentioned 'The wisdom' (al- Hikmah) and I have learnt from the people of knowledgr that 'al- hikmah' is the Sunnah of Allah's Messenger (S). And it is from the mercy of Allah (S) that He sent to us a way of practice what is in the Quran." (Shaafe�ee, Resaala page 44-45; Sibaa�ee, As-Sunnah page 50) You see that now? Those statements conforms �both� the Qur�an and the Sunnah are Revelations from Allah (S). After mentioning that, let us look at this verse: Q.16:44 (Y. Ali) (We sent them) with Clear Signs and Scriptures; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought. Bialbayyinati waalzzuburi waanzalna ilayka alththikra litubayyina lilnnasi ma nuzzila ilayhim walaAAallahum yatafakkaroona Q.16:44 (Y. Ali) بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ وَالزُّبُرِ وَأَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الذِّكْرَ لِتُبَيِّنَ لِلنَّاسِ مَا نُزِّلَ إِلَيْهِمْ وَلَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ (16:44) The word there is �Dhikr� means �reminder� and is miss translate as Qur�an some time. The Scholars of the salaaf explained that when Allah (S) used the term �Dhikr (reminder)� He Allah (S) is referring to �both� the Quran and Sunnah because both are �Reminder� and it (alkitaba waalhikmata / The Book and the wisdom) came from Allah (S) so both are revelations. They agreed that the best translation should be �Revelations�. Above it is translates as �The Message� which also mean both the Quran and the Sunnah because both are messages from Allah (S). And Allah (S) said: �We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).� Q.15:9 (Y. Ali) Inna nahnu nazzalna alththikra wainna lahu lahafithoona Q.15:9 إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ (15:9) Both the Qur�an and Sunnah are guarded! Now that we understood that both are revelations from Allah (S) look what Allah (S) instructed the Prophet (S) to do, read: �And we have revealed the Book (al-kitaab) unto thee only that thou mayst "explain" unto them that wherein they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.� Q.16:64 In the above verse Allah (S) only mentioned �the Book (al-kitaab)� and he said: �we have revealed the Book (al-kitaab) unto thee only that thou mayst "explain" unto them that wherein they differ�� Who has to explain the Qur�an? The Messenger (S)! And what is the explanation of the Qur�an? The Sunnah! Allah described it as the �Wisdom� of the Qur�an: �Do not treat Allah's Signs as a jest, but solemnly rehearse Allah's favours on you, and the fact that He sent down to you the Book and Wisdom, for your instruction. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is well acquainted with all things. Q.2:231 (Y. Ali) In this verse it reads: (We sent them) with Clear Signs and Scriptures; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest �explain� clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought. Q.16:44 (Y. Ali) That would mean: Qur�an explain Qu�ran, Sunnah explain Qur�an and Sunnah explain sunnah; and because both are revelations from Allah (S) He said: �He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah. But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds).� 4:80 (Y. Ali) You see my friend according to the above verse obeying the messenger is not shirk! It mentioned in Q.3:31 (Y. Ali) Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." It Mentioned in Q.4:59 (Y. Ali) O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination. In that verse, you see the verb (obey)? It applies only to Allah and the Messenger (S) not the people of authority, Allah (S) and the Messenger (S) is to be Obey at all times: �It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path�. Q.33:36 (Y. Ali). However, the people of authority does not have to be obey at all times because if they go against Qur�an and sunnah we can disobey them and that is because Allah (S) did not say obey the people of authority, instead he said: ��and� those with authority�. Note: The people of authority are the scholars! THE WARNING: If anyone contends with the Messenger even after guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that becoming to men of Faith, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and land him in Hell,- what an evil refuge! Q.4:115 (Y. Ali) But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction. Q. 4:65 (Y. Ali) Remember I�ve showed you that the �Wisdom (Hikma)� is the sunnah that came down from Allah (S)? Look what He Allah (S) says here: �He granteth wisdom to whom He pleaseth; and he to whom wisdom is granted receiveth indeed a benefit overflowing; but none will grasp the Message but men of understanding.� 2:269 (Y. Ali) Yutee alhikmata man yashao waman yuta alhikmata faqad ootiya khayran katheeran wama yaththakkaru illa oloo alalbabi When He Allah (S) said: �He granteth wisdom to whom He pleaseth� It is not our wisdom (Hikma), it is the Hikma of the Messenger (S) which is the Sunnah which is the explanation of the Qur�an or the understanding the Qur�an. And the one who receive the wisdom (Hikma) is he who understood the Quran and sunnah and implement it: (and he to whom wisdom is granted receiveth indeed a benefit overflowing). Br. Zainool |
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LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!
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Meditations
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Joined: 16 November 2002 Status: Offline Points: 239 |
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Posted: 13 December 2009 at 9:37am |
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No need to be sorry for that, I'm taking too long to reply to you myself Have had several posts open on the computer for several weeks Been busy with vacations and lots of traveling, which I'm still doing will try to reply later I hope when it gets quite for you that you find time to get some more information about basics of Islamic theology, Basics of legislations ( Usul el Feqh ) I find that of many of the things you oppose, or trying to 'warn' us against , we actually don't do , it's many times a matter of difference in wordings/definitions rather than actual difference in thought We have some main differences as well of course Happy holidays Regards |
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He said : My Lord, Open for me my heart, And make easy my mission , And release the knot of my tongue, So they understand my words . Surat AtTur ( 20 ) : 25-28
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Ron Webb
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Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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Posted: 15 December 2009 at 6:56pm |
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Yes, and I responded to your "proof" by explaining that it wasn't a proof at all. Simply repeating the same claims doesn't make them any more valid.
You can't use the hadith to prove the validity of the hadith. Clearly any hadith that claims to offer "something similar" to the Quran is fabricated because the Quran itself makes it clear in several places (2:23, 10:38, 52:34) that the Quran has no equal.
The first clause says that Allah sent "clear signs and scriptures" to them, i.e., earlier prophets. The second clause says that the Message (the Quran) was sent to Muhammad to explain (again) God's will.
This passage states that the Quran is given to Muhammad as the explanation of "that wherein they differ", in other words where they have gone astray from God's will (as given to them many times in the past via Adam, Abraham, Moses, etc.).
It's not a mistranslation. The Quran is a "reminder" because God's will has been sent down many times before, but the people have forgotten it.
As I have already explained, this verse actually supports my position better than yours. First of all, it most certainly does tell us to obey those in authority. (At least it does in English, anyway, and I can't imagine how it could be otherwise in Arabic.) The second verb "obey" has a compound object ("Muhammad and those charged with authority"), and therefore the verb applies equally to both sides of the conjunction "and". Moreover, I thnk it is crucial that the word "obey" is repeated twice: once just for Allah, and a second time for Muhammad and other authorities. This suggests to me that there is one kind of obedience reserved just for Allah, and a second kind of obedience that is due to "Muhammad and those charged with authority among you". |
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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