Hmmmmm!

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   For my position about Ghadeer and that there was no explicit mentioning of any succesor, I will use the words of a Shia scolar, AbdelAziz Sachedina. I am taking this from a criticism to Sachenida's comments from another Shia Aalim, Syed Rizivi:
The controversy started regarding the statement of a learned Sh�'a scholar published in the Bio Ethics Encyclopaedia under the entry of "Islam" in which he writes:
"Mohammad died in 632 C.E., having brought the whole of Arabia under the Medina government. However, he had left no explicit instructions regarding succession to his religious-political authority."[60]
Initially, when I was given a copy of the article, I did not think much of it because I realized that it was a paper written for a very wide audience. (Although ideally the issue of succession should not have been mentioned in that article at all, its deletion would not have harmed the main body of the article.) However, the response of the learned writer to the questions sent to him via internet by some Sh�'as from the U.K. became a matter of concern for me. He responded as follows:
"On the question whether there was no EXPLICIT instruction regarding succession to the Prophet's 'religious-political authority' let it be clear that the statement while asserting that there were no EXPLICIT (that is, distinctly expressed, clearly stated, not merely implied) instruction in the matter of succession to the 'Prophet's religious-political authority,' it asserts by implication that there was an IMPLICIT (that is, necessarily involved though not plainly expressed) direction in the matter. This implicit direction of the Prophet was expressed on several occasions in his lifetime, including finally at al-Ghadir.
"It was also because of this absence of explicit statement on these occasions that Imam 'Ali never used any of these occasions, including al-Ghadir, to put forward his candidacy as the only rightful successor of the Prophet."[61]
After the 21st of Ramadhan 1418, the learned scholar issued another statement in which he reaffirmed his belief in the absence of the explicit appointment of Imam 'Ali by writing:
"The foundation of our faith, that is the Shi'a faith, is based on this IMPLICIT sense. Historically (the only position that can be taken in the article here) the source of dissension in the early community was the absence of EXPLICIT directions regarding the succession in the community."
"The statement of the wilaya (man kuntu mawla[hu] fa hadha 'Aliyyun mawla[hu]), which is the documentation for the Sh�'a acclamation in support of the Imamate of Imam 'Ali, is regarded as an implicit rather than explicit statement of the Prophet regarding the 'succession of his comprehensive authority.' The reason is that the word mawla in Arabic is ambiguous as far as the 'succession' itself is concerned."[62]
Note, the bold portions are Sachenida's statements. Of course, as a "mainstream" Shia Aalim, Rizivi goes on to put forward the classical theories as to why Ali's appointment was explicit. However, if a Shia scholar of Abdel Aziz Sachedina's stature doubted the explicit nature of the Prophet's appointment after so many years of studying Shiism in Shia centers of learning, this is an issue of note. It seems that only after a load of Shia objections (and perhaps threats even) was Sachedina forced to come into line and declare that his view on this is the same as that of mainstream Imami Shias. 
Now about the position of Shias with respect to Prophets and Imaams, I will take an excerpt from al-islam.org's article on Imamah vs. Prophethood (Part I) , were it is mentioned clearly:
The Shia believe that the rank of Imamat (the position of a divinely-appointed leader) is higher than that of prophethood and messengership.
and
The Shia further believe that the twelve Imams of the House of Prophet Muhammad have the rank higher than that of ALL the messengers (be Imam or not) except Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF).
I know the person who wrote this is perhaps not a scholar of Shiism, but since al-islam.org has agreed to place the statements in its website, it would indicate that such a view has at least a good ammount of support among learned Shias as well.

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jello Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 27 April 2005 Location: Saudi Arabia Status: Offline Points: 37	Post Options Post Reply Quote jello Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 May 2005 at 4:46am
	For my position about Ghadeer and that there was no explicit mentioning of any succesor, I will use the words of a Shia scolar, AbdelAziz Sachedina. I am taking this from a criticism to Sachenida's comments from another Shia Aalim, Syed Rizivi: The controversy started regarding the statement of a learned Sh�'a scholar published in the Bio Ethics Encyclopaedia under the entry of "Islam" in which he writes: "Mohammad died in 632 C.E., having brought the whole of Arabia under the Medina government. However, he had left no explicit instructions regarding succession to his religious-political authority."[60] Initially, when I was given a copy of the article, I did not think much of it because I realized that it was a paper written for a very wide audience. (Although ideally the issue of succession should not have been mentioned in that article at all, its deletion would not have harmed the main body of the article.) However, the response of the learned writer to the questions sent to him via internet by some Sh�'as from the U.K. became a matter of concern for me. He responded as follows: "On the question whether there was no EXPLICIT instruction regarding succession to the Prophet's 'religious-political authority' let it be clear that the statement while asserting that there were no EXPLICIT (that is, distinctly expressed, clearly stated, not merely implied) instruction in the matter of succession to the 'Prophet's religious-political authority,' it asserts by implication that there was an IMPLICIT (that is, necessarily involved though not plainly expressed) direction in the matter. This implicit direction of the Prophet was expressed on several occasions in his lifetime, including finally at al-Ghadir. "It was also because of this absence of explicit statement on these occasions that Imam 'Ali never used any of these occasions, including al-Ghadir, to put forward his candidacy as the only rightful successor of the Prophet."[61] After the 21st of Ramadhan 1418, the learned scholar issued another statement in which he reaffirmed his belief in the absence of the explicit appointment of Imam 'Ali by writing: "The foundation of our faith, that is the Shi'a faith, is based on this IMPLICIT sense. Historically (the only position that can be taken in the article here) the source of dissension in the early community was the absence of EXPLICIT directions regarding the succession in the community." "The statement of the wilaya (man kuntu mawla[hu] fa hadha 'Aliyyun mawla[hu]), which is the documentation for the Sh�'a acclamation in support of the Imamate of Imam 'Ali, is regarded as an implicit rather than explicit statement of the Prophet regarding the 'succession of his comprehensive authority.' The reason is that the word mawla in Arabic is ambiguous as far as the 'succession' itself is concerned."[62] Note, the bold portions are Sachenida's statements. Of course, as a "mainstream" Shia Aalim, Rizivi goes on to put forward the classical theories as to why Ali's appointment was explicit. However, if a Shia scholar of Abdel Aziz Sachedina's stature doubted the explicit nature of the Prophet's appointment after so many years of studying Shiism in Shia centers of learning, this is an issue of note. It seems that only after a load of Shia objections (and perhaps threats even) was Sachedina forced to come into line and declare that his view on this is the same as that of mainstream Imami Shias. Now about the position of Shias with respect to Prophets and Imaams, I will take an excerpt from al-islam.org's article on Imamah vs. Prophethood (Part I) , were it is mentioned clearly: The Shia believe that the rank of Imamat (the position of a divinely-appointed leader) is higher than that of prophethood and messengership. and The Shia further believe that the twelve Imams of the House of Prophet Muhammad have the rank higher than that of ALL the messengers (be Imam or not) except Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF). I know the person who wrote this is perhaps not a scholar of Shiism, but since al-islam.org has agreed to place the statements in its website, it would indicate that such a view has at least a good ammount of support among learned Shias as well.

Abu Hadi Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 13 May 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 29	Post Options Post Reply Quote Abu Hadi Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 May 2005 at 6:12pm
	Salams to br. jello and others, Quoting jello, Interesting to note that Ayatullah Subhani does not mention the other occasions of Jibreel's descent at all, instead giving the impression that the Prophet heard this the first time and decided to immediately stop "in his tracks" so as to say. Please provide source for the above, I would be intersted in reading it, as he is a well known scholar. As regards your other source, I will use the words of a Shia scolar, AbdelAziz Sachedina. ... I have never heard of him before. I googled him and he seems to be a very minor figure at best. I don't belive he is a mushtahed. It would be helpful to the discussion if you didn't use such sources in the future. You have posted a quote from Imam Khomeni, which I haven't addressed yet, because it seemed a little off topic, although not terribly so. In shah Allah, if I have the time, I will address this quote, as it is an important one and worthy of explaination. Some members of this forum have asked me to give examples of some of the Prophet's(p.b.u.h) appointments during his lifetime. In shah Allah, and with your permission, I will post some. All of these are from well know narrators from Ahl Al Sunnah. Here is the first From Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 192: Narrated Sahl bin Sad: That he heard the Prophet on the day (of the battle) of Khaibar saying, "I will give the flag to a person at whose hands Allah will grant victory." So, the companions of the Prophet got up, wishing eagerly to see to whom the flag will be given, and everyone of them wished to be given the flag. But the Prophet asked for 'Ali. Someone informed him that he was suffering from eye-trouble. So, he ordered them to bring 'Ali in front of him. Then the Prophet spat in his eyes and his eyes were cured immediately as if he had never any eye-trouble. 'Ali said, "We will fight with them (i.e. infidels) till they become like us (i.e. Muslims)." The Prophet said, "Be patient, till you face them and invite them to Islam and inform them of what Allah has enjoined upon them. By Allah! If a single person embraces Islam at your hands (i.e. through you), that will be better for you than the red camels."

Abu Hadi Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 13 May 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 29	Post Options Post Reply Quote Abu Hadi Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 May 2005 at 6:14pm
	Here is another, about the same incident, again from Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 219c: Narrated Salama bin Al-Akwa: Ali remained behind the Prophet during the battle of Khaibar as he way suffering from some eye trouble but then he said, "How should I stay behind Allah's Apostle?" So, he set out till he joined the Prophet. On the eve of the day of the conquest of Khaibar, Allah's Apostle said, "(No doubt) I will give the flag or, tomorrow, a man whom Allah and His Apostle love or who loves Allah and His apostle will take the flag. Allah will bestow victory upon him." Suddenly 'Ali joined us though we were not expecting him. The people said, "Here is 'Ali. "So, Allah's Apostle gave the flag to him and Allah bestowed victory upon him. Edited by Abu Hadi

Abu Hadi Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 13 May 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 29	Post Options Post Reply Quote Abu Hadi Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 May 2005 at 6:36pm
	Here is another example, In the ninth year after Hijrah, following the Prophet�s return from the battle of Tabuk, he (the Prophet) appointed Abu Bakr to lead three hundred Muslims so as to instruct them rituals of Hajj. Abu Bakr set off to Makkah with those accompanying him; he then proclaimed in people the Prophet�s advice that polytheists are no longer allowed to perform Hajj after this year and no naked person is allowed to perform the Tawaf around the Ka`bah. Here is the scholarly source for this, Al-Bukhari reported on the authority of Hamid Ibn `Abdur Rahman that Abu Hurairah (may Allah be pleased with him) said, �On the Day of Nahr (10th of Dhul-Hijjah, in the year prior to the Farewell Pilgrimage of the Prophet when Abu Bakr was the leader of the pilgrims in that Hajj) Abu Bakr sent me along with other announcers to Mina to make a public announcement, �No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year and no naked person is allowed to perform the Tawaf around the Ka`bah.� Then Allah's Messenger sent `Ali to read out Surat Bara�ah (At-Tawbah) to the people; so he made the announcement along with us on the Day of Nahr in Mina, �No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year and no naked person is allowed to perform the Tawaf around the Ka`bah.�" taken from http://www.islamonline.net/English/hajj/Landmarks/1425/09.sh tml I will post more, If the brs and strs need more proof

jello Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 27 April 2005 Location: Saudi Arabia Status: Offline Points: 37	Post Options Post Reply Quote jello Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 May 2005 at 3:38am
	Salaam I wanted to quickly mention that the site at islamonline says as the title that Abu Bakr led the first Hajj at A.H.9 (Abu HAdi can check this). Also, it mentions that Ali came only to declare Surah al-Taubah, and not as a commander to replace Abu Bakr, and it says so very clearly. Additionaly, I would like for all of us to go through all the appointments the Prophet (SAW) made in his life, since they would give us an insight into what the Prophet's preferences were as a whole.

Abu Hadi Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 13 May 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 29	Post Options Post Reply Quote Abu Hadi Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 May 2005 at 6:48am
	Salams, Quoting Br. Jello Additionaly, I would like for all of us to go through all the appointments the Prophet (SAW) made in his life, since they would give us an insight into what the Prophet's preferences were as a whole I also belive we should do this. Al Hamdu Ilah, we agree on something.

jello Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 27 April 2005 Location: Saudi Arabia Status: Offline Points: 37	Post Options Post Reply Quote jello Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 May 2005 at 11:58pm
	Salaam So let us start first with the battle of Tabuk... it is well-known that Ali (Raa) was left behind by the Prophet to take care of the city of Madeenah in his abscence. So the Prophet must have appointed someone as the standard-bearer from amomg his Companions, as well as leaders to other posts during the preparation for the confrontation.... so who were they ???

Ali Zaki Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 10 May 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 217	Post Options Post Reply Quote Ali Zaki Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 16 May 2005 at 7:08am
	Salam Jello, I would like to say that your attention to detail and staying on topic is refresing . Regarding the declaration of Surah al-Taubah, I don't believe that the Shia point of view is that Imam Ali (a.s.) was sent because of some particular error or oversight by Abu Bakr, but rather it related to the following, �Al� is from me and I am from him. My words will not be conveyed except by me or by �Al�.' Which is in Ibn Hanbal�s Musnad published in 6 volumes by Matba�ah al-Maymaniyyah, vol. 4, pp. 164-165, 1st edition, Egypt, 1313 AH. OTHER OCCASIONS WHERE IMAM ALI WAS APPOINTED TO REPRESENT THE PROPHET Again, from Ahmad ibn Hanbal "Burayrah (Aslam�) has related: The Prophet (S) dispatched two regiments towards Yemen, one under the command of (Imam) �Al� bin Ab� T�lib [(�a)] and the other led by Kh�lid bin Wal�d with instructions that when the two regiments are with each other they should be under the sole command of (Imam) �Al� [(�a)], and when they are separate they will remain under different commanders. We the Muslim forces, encountered the Yemeni tribe of Ban� Zayd and fought and defeated these infidels. When their men had died fighting, the families surrendered and from among the captives, (Imam) �Al� [(�a)] chose a maid for himself. Burayrah continues: Kh�lid bin Wal�d sent me to the Prophet with a letter informing him of this matter. I submitted the letter to the Prophet and when he had read it I saw signs of anger appear on his face. I said: O Messenger of Allah (S), you sent me with a man instructing me to obey him, and accordingly I performed whatever duty I was ordered to do. The Messenger of Allah (S) said: L� taqa� f� �Al�yyin fa innahu minn� wa ana minhu wa huwa waliyyukum ba�d� wa innahu minn� wa ana minhu wa huwa waliyyukum ba�d� (Don't try to find faults with �Al�, he is indeed from me and I am from him, he is your leader after me. He is from me and I am from him, he is your leader after me). Ibn Hanbal�s Musnad, vol. 5, 356, Matba�ah al-Maymaniyyah. REGARDING THE EXPEDITION OF TABUK Please refer to the sources for the interpretation, as this is also in quotation marks. "In the expedition of Tabuk (in the month of Rajab of the ninth year A.H.) the Prophet left 'A1i as his deputy in Medina. 'Ali exclaimed with dismay: "Are You leaving me behind?" The Prophet asked him: "O 'Ali, are you not satisfied that you have the same position in relation to me as Harun had to Musa except that there is no prophet after me? " "The Prophet thereby meant that as Musa had left behind Harun to look after his people when he went to receive the Commandments, in the same way he was leaving 'Ali behind as his deputy to look after the affairs of Islam during his absence. " SOURCES: Ibn Majah: as-Sunan, p.l2; Ahmad: al-Musnad, vol. 1, p. 174; an-Nasa'i: al-Khasa'is, pp. I5-16; atTahawi: Mushkilu 'l-athar, vol. 2, p. 309; al-Muhibb at-Tabari: Dhakhatiru 'l-'uqba, p.63. Ironically, The Shia scholars use this tradition as proof of Imam Ali's(a.s.) nomination as the successor of the Prophet(a.s.). A MORE GENERAL POINT REGARDING THE OBLIGATION OF OBIEDIENCE TO IMAM ALI Here, I am using a Shia source, however, I quote it because I know that some (if not most) Sunni's consider the Jafari 'Mathab to be legitimate and valid. O ye who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those vested with authority from among you(Ulu L'Amr); then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end (4:59). al-Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq (as) said that this verse was revealed about 'Ali ibn Abi Talib, Hasan and Husayn (as) . Upon hearing this, someone asked the Imam: "People say, 'Why did Allah not mention the names of 'Ali and his family in His Book?'" The Imam answered: "Tell them that there came the command of salat (prayer), but Allah did not mention whether three or four raka'at (units) (to be performed); it was the Apostle of Allah who explained all the details. And (the command of ) zakat was revealed, but Allah did not say that it is one in every forty dirham; it was the Apostle of Allah who explained it; and hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca) was ordered but Allah did not say to perform tawaf ( circumambulation of the Ka'bah) seven times the Apostle of Allah explained it. Likewise, the verse was revealed: Obey Allah, and obey the Apostle and those vested with authority from among you, and it was revealed about 'A1i and Hasan and Husayn (as). SOURCE: al-'Ayyashi: at-Tafsir, vol. 1, pp.249-50; Fayd al-Kashani: at-Tafsir (as-Safi), vol.1, p.364. Maybe Abu Hadi can expand on this list. Salam
	"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad." Imam Ali (a.s.)