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Is Islam true?
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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Points: 1647 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2016 at 9:57am
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

Somebody please find me an authentic translation that renders this phrase as "maid servants" or anything like it. AhmadJoyia, I have seen you express your opinions about 24:58, but if there was evidence to back it up or if you offered a "study" of some sort, I didn't see it.
The verse 24:58 clearly shows that out of all possible definitions, at least this phrase can't imply 'concubine'. Now with this fact settled, we can closely look at the translation of the 'maid servant'. Here is the full dictionary (Merriam Webster) meaning of word 'Servant' and adding 'maid' to this definition, IMHO, the highlighted in red would closely match the phrase used in Quran. one that serves others <a public servant>; especially : one that performs duties about the person or home of a master or personal employer.
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airmano View Drop Down
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When I look at the different translations some of them clearly talk of slaves (see Picktall & Muhammad Sarwar for example). The French would say: "Calling a cat a cat". My standard guess is that the more modern translations try to avoid this word for obvious reasons.
It is a bit the same logic as for the age of Aisha: Until the middle of the last century it was widely accepted that she was still a child when she (was) married (to) Mohamed. As it became obvious that there was a severe problem, a flock of eager scholars moved in to "shift" her age up.


Airmano

Edited by airmano - 21 January 2016 at 1:16pm
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
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Caringheart View Drop Down
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It seems silly to me, to be having a semantics argument...
it seems pretty clear that maid servant means nothing more or less than,
female slave.
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2016 at 5:32pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:

The verse 24:58 clearly shows that out of all possible definitions, at least this phrase can't imply 'concubine'

I don't see why not, but anyway they are not concubines. According to corpus.quran.com, three translations use the word "slaves" (Pickthall, Muhammad Sarwar, and Mohsin Khan). The other four stay with the literal version, "those whom your right hands possess". None of them use anything like "maid servants".
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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The dictionary definition of 'servant' includes slave of the old time (read '...of a Master'), and a (read personal employer) for the paid worker of recent times. Thus this translation brings better enactment of this verse for, IMHO, all times.

Edited by AhmadJoyia - 21 January 2016 at 9:26pm
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2016 at 9:47pm
Yes, a servant can be either a paid worker or a slave. But a possession can only be a slave.
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Same as when you pay someone, you 'own/posses' his services. More so, if s/he resides with you, you 'own/posses' more than her/his just services.

Edited by AhmadJoyia - 21 January 2016 at 10:19pm
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Tim the plumber View Drop Down
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Points: 944 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tim the plumber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2016 at 1:31am
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:

Same as when you pay someone, you 'own/posses' his services. More so, if s/he resides with you, you 'own/posses' more than her/his just services.


No you do not.

Not unless you are being exploitive.
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