Why would anyone believe him?

Ron Webb wrote: Yes, I know they believed him.  My question is, why?

That is not what you originally asked.  You asked why would "anyone" believe him?  As I and others have pointed out, many people did believe him.  So your question was absurd from the get-go. 

As to why they actually believed him, there are many reasons.  First of all, as sister Fatima pointed out, he was known to be a truthful and trustworthy person.  People saw no reason why he would have decided one day that he had been chosen by Allah (swt) to deliver His revelation to mankind.  Moreover, his message of social justice and fairness appealed to the weak and oppressed people in Arabian society.  That is why most of his early followers were among the poor.  Most of the elites rejected his message. 

Other reasons for why they believed are his miracles, his prophecies and of course his undeniable success against innumerable odds.  Logically speaking, there is no way he should have succeeded the way he did.  Unbelievers like you are at a loss to explain how he managed to defeat his enemies and become the most influential person in human history, despite having the odds piled up against him for most of his prophetic life. 

Ron Webb wrote: No, I have no proof, but neither do you; and generally speaking when someone claims to hear God talking to them, the least likely possibility is that God is really talking to him.  So why in this case would anyone assume that the least likely possibility is the truth?

      
I have plenty of proof.  You simply reject it by positing your unprovable crackpot theories.  Tell me how Muhammad (peace be upon him) was able to succeed like he did?  How was he able to defeat his enemies and start a global movement which transformed the world?  And why was he willing to undergo severe hardships in the process?  Try to answer the question with logic and reason.  No more of your "I don't know" and "Maybe this" or "Maybe that" nonsense.

Ron Webb wrote: Personally, I think he probably sincerely believed it was God's voice, at least at first.  But IMHO it would still be plausible, even if it was a pretense from the beginning.  Surely that was L. Ron Hubbard's motivation in starting Scientology.  By the way, he was already a successful writer, so by your logic what he did was absurd. But it worked out pretty well for him, I'd say.

First of all, your "humble opinions" are irrelevant to the discussion.  And by the way, Muhammad (peace be upon him) did not claim to hear "God's voice".  He claimed that the Angel Gabriel (as) appeared to him and brought the first ayats of the Quran, which was God's word.     

Second, it does not go unnoticed that, as usual, you didn't answer the question and instead went off on tangents.  What is your explanation for why a well-to-do and respected merchant would one day decide to make up a spiritual encounter, and then start a religious revolution and undergo severe hardships in the process, all in the name of that supposed made-up encounter?  If anything, he would have made up an encounter with one of the pagan gods and then pretend that he was that god's agent.  He would not have picked a fight with the ruling pagan elites but instead would have used their sensibilities to his advantage.  Why would he have decided to challenge the status quo instead?  Try to answer the question.  Don't go off on tangents again!

Ron Webb wrote: Maybe because, as I said, if he had recanted, his followers might have killed him.  (That is what his own religion instructed, after all.)  Maybe because he still believed he was a true Prophet.  Maybe because the power and influence they were offering was nothing like what he already had as God's press agent.

Again, no answers...just a whole bunch of "maybe this" and "maybe that" nonsense. 

The fact is that at the time this offer was made, Muhammad (peace be upon him) was in no position to reject it.  Most of his followers were poor and defenseless.  They were not in a position to kill him if he had recanted and accepted the pagans' offer.  And if he had rejected the offer, which he did, he would have known that the pagans would try to kill him. 

Now use your head, Ron.  Which scenario would have been more advantageous for a supposed impostor: 

A.  Accept the lucrative offer from the powerful elites and risk facing the wrath of his poor and defenseless followers,

OR    

B.  Reject the lucrative offer from the powerful elites and risk facing their wrath.

Which scenario, do you think, provided the most security for Muhammad (peace be upon him)?  Que the Jeopardy music...

Ron Webb wrote: Maybe because he really thought that's what God wanted.  Maybe because it would help convince people like you of his sincerity.  Maybe because he didn't want the Prophet (of all people) to be accused of being lax.

 

And maybe you are just a tongue-tied unbeliever who is at a loss to explain Muhammad's sincerity, patience, personal sacrifice and ultimate success against immeasurable odds.  Maybe you are just afraid of the truth.  Maybe you just don't want to accept that you have been deceived.  Maybe this and maybe that.  Maybe, maybe, maybe...

You have yet to explain why a supposed impostor would undergo severe hardships for something he knew to be false.  You have yet to explain why such a person would forgo even the basic comforts of life (let alone wealth beyond his wildest dreams) all for a lie.  What a shock...

Ron Webb wrote: I don't see why not.  Was Hitler crazy?  Lots of people thought so.  One of our own local historical notables, Louis Riel, also made competent decisions in battle, but he also (allegedly) talked to God.  For that matter, one of our prime ministers, William Lyon Mackenzie King, also had a lot of wacky spiritual experiences (including seances where he talked to his deceased dog), and yet he was a very competent leader.  It's not that surprising.

 

None of these people were nearly as influential as Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)!  Nor were any of them diagnosed with any psychiatric disorder (though there have been various theories about Hitler).  They were all competent people.  But which of them was as successful as Muhammad (peace be upon him)?  Which of them was willing to undergo hardships for his cause?  Hitler lived a luxurious lifestyle as ruler of Germany and it was only once the Allied armies were advancing on Berlin that he was forced to hide in bunkers.

Sorry Ron.  Try again!  What other crackpot theory do you have?

Ron Webb wrote: Muhammad had a total of fifteen wives, as many as eleven at one time, plus several female slaves as concubines.  That in itself is a measure of wealth.  More to the point, why would he need a lot of tangible wealth?  As God's Prophet, who would/could refuse him anything he wanted?

 

There you go again, showing how much of an illogical ignoramus you really are!  Polygamy was a common occurrence in Arabia and was an accepted practice.  Why would he need to invent a religion in order to get more wives when he could have done that from the start?     

As for your other crackpot theory, that he didn't need "tangible wealth" because he could simply ask for anything from his followers, the fact is that he didn't do that!  In fact, whenever he was given any gifts, food or anything else, he gave it away to others!  Here is a perfect example:

"Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported that a person came to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and said: Messenger of Allah, I am undone. He (the Holy Prophet) said: What has brought about your ruin? He said: I have had intercourse with my wife during the month of Ramadan. Upon this he (the Holy prophet) said: Can you find a slave to set him free? He said: No.  He (the Holy Prophet again) said: Can you observe fast for two consecutive months? He said: No. He (the Holy Prophet) said: Can you provide food to sixty poor people?, He said: No. He then sat down and (in the meanwhile) there was brought to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) a basket which contained dates. He (the Holy Prophet) said: Give these (dates) in charity. He (the man) said: Am I to give to one who is poorer than I? There is no family poorer than mine between the two lava plains of Medina. The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) laughed so that his molar teeth became visible and said: Go and give it to your family to eat." (Sahih Muslim, Book 6, Number 2457)

So in this incident, the Prophet was given dates as a gift, and he gave it away to someone else in need.  If we go by your crackpot theory, he would have kept the dates for himself (especially since ample food was a luxury in those days) and simply pretend to the person that God had forgiven his sin.

Moreover, as I said before, most of Muhammad's followers were poor and downtrodden.  There were some who were wealthy, such as Abu Bakr (ra), but the vast majority were poor.  They did not have much to give to him, even if he had demanded anything from them, which he didn't. 

Ron Webb wrote: Unless of course it turns out that Gautama Buddha or Guru Nanak or any of a hundred other religious leaders had the true religion?  Again, why choose Muhammad instead of all those others?

For all the reasons given above.  None of the people you have mentioned have had the kind of impact and influence on human history as Muhammad (peace be upon him).

You still yet have to offer a reasoned and logical explanation for why you believe that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was a supposed impostor!  Your foolishness and desperate attempts to go off on tangents whenever you can't answer a question are on display for all to see.    


Edited by islamispeace - 05 July 2014 at 12:15pm

fatima wrote: Why they believed him? Well if some1 has seen a person getting to the age of 40 right infront of them n only seen the good things from that person. If u have known that person only to be an honest and truthful man and an upright member of an high esteemed household.

Even such a person can be mistaken.  Even such a person can develop a mental or psychological issues at age 40.  Even such a person can have a change in personality.  These things may be unlikely, but they are still far more likely than anyone actually speaking to God.
 

Another factor of every religion, no matter how many u associate with God, all of them believe in 'ONE TRUE POWERFUL, THE CREATOR OF EVERYTHING'.

Which is no reason to believe any one religion over another.

Not long back they themselves had seen Rab of kaaba saving this sacred house without any human help.

Sorry, I have no idea what you are referring to.

have u ever read Holy Quran? Any person reading Holy Quran without any bias would know its something different.

I have read the Quran -- not the whole thing, but enough to know what it is about.  I won't give you my opinion in detail, because I don't want to be unnecessarily offensive.  Let me just say that I found the Bhagavad Gita much more inspiring.

Have you read the Bible, the Bhagavad Gita, the Book of Mormon, the sayings of Confucius, the I Ching, the Tao Te Ching?  I have all these books and many more on my bookshelf, and have read much of them.  I wonder why you think the Quran is "something different".

He saw talked about sacial unjustice and told people that this wordly division is not what matters, He saw gave them a hope. He saw told them where and who u born does not matter as much as what u do with urself.

No doubt, but so did all the other great religious leaders.  It's still no reason to choose one over the others.

And yeah some other leaders mentioned did try to do somethings but they lacked in one way r other. In the book 100 most influential people, it is said that he was the only leader to achieve excellence on both wordly n religious fronts. Somebody who dint only preach equality but his prayer showed n put a master next to slave.

He also promoted slavery.  He captured and kept slaves himself.  He taught inequality of men and women.  He imposed horrendous punishments for minor offences.  He was a warlord who used intimidation ("convert or die") to spread his religion.  I won't go into details on any of this, but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

I know people who choose not to believe him r there but his companions saw miracles with being around him.

Again, all religions and all religious leaders have various miracles associated with them.  Most of them are just made-up stories, mistaken observations or errors in transmission.  And if most of them are wrong, I see no reason to believe any of them.

This uptil our Prophet saw was amongst his companion, now after him saw, his companions ruled on the principles brought by him saw. The best governing goverments world had ever seen.
With time more ayaat of Holy Quran showed what had been revealed was the truth, what was told by the Prophet saw was indeed the truth.
Our leaders n much of the commons have moved so much further away from their religion but people reverting r ever increasing.
Every few years science figures something out n then v learn v were told of that in Holy Quran.
Every human true to himself eventually figures out there has to be One Most Powerfull. Knowing our own capacity, v know there has to be some guidelines from Him.
Now if some1 does not want to believe its up to them. For abu jehl it was that they can compete with everything else but not this n believing meant belittling himself n his tribe to the tribe of bani hashim.
Today people who figure out the truth n only not follow it because it means giving up many pleasures they become use to.
Lastly miracle of Holy Quran, its challenge, bring only an ayah like this n u will never do. Over 1400 years have passed n still there!


Edited by fatima - 05 July 2014 at 1:05am

islamispeace wrote: Ron Webb wrote: Many people believed (the Christian version of) Jesus too.  And Buddha.  And Lao-Tzu.  And Joseph Smith.  And L. Ron Hubbard.  Why don't you believe any of them? Now, now, don't change the subject.  You opened this thread, Ron.  You gave it the title "Why would anyone believe him?"  Well, people did believe him, Ron!  Your central question was absurd from the get-go! Do you acknowledge that?

Yes, I know they believed him.  My question is, why?

So you have no proof and no answers.  You're just throwing out all sorts of crackpot theories.

No, I have no proof, but neither do you; and generally speaking when someone claims to hear God talking to them, the least likely possibility is that God is really talking to him.  So why in this case would anyone assume that the least likely possibility is the truth?

Now, let's deal with your theories.  Was Muhammad (peace be upon him) motivated by power, wealth and influence?  The short answer is no.  Here is the long answer: He was already a well-respected merchant and married to a well-off woman, Hazrat Khadijah (may Allah be pleased with her), by the time he received the revelation.  So, the idea that he decided one day that in order to get power, wealth and influence, he had to pretend like he received God's revelation is just absurd.

Personally, I think he probably sincerely believed it was God's voice, at least at first.  But IMHO it would still be plausible, even if it was a pretense from the beginning.  Surely that was L. Ron Hubbard's motivation in starting Scientology.  By the way, he was already a successful writer, so by your logic what he did was absurd. But it worked out pretty well for him, I'd say.

But in case you are still not convinced, let us consider that once he had made his message public and the pagan elites of Mecca had initially reacted with anger and at times violence, they became frustrated with his persistence and hence made him an offer which any man who was seeking power and wealth would have been crazy to turn down.  They offered him those things.  They offered him influence and power, if only he would stop preaching against their idols.  Yet, he refused their offer!  Why would he have done that if his goal was the very things the pagans had just offered him?

Maybe because, as I said, if he had recanted, his followers might have killed him.  (That is what his own religion instructed, after all.)  Maybe because he still believed he was a true Prophet.  Maybe because the power and influence they were offering was nothing like what he already had as God's press agent.

Let's look at it another way.  If Muhammad (peace be upon him) was an impostor, then why did he go above and beyond in the practice of his religion, doing more than what he required of his followers?  For example, in the matter of fasting, it is well known that he fasted longer than his followers and that when his followers asked to be allowed to fast as long as he did, he did not allow them to do so.  Why did he do that?  Why would he have deliberately placed more difficulties on himself if he was indeed an impostor?

Maybe because he really thought that's what God wanted.  Maybe because it would help convince people like you of his sincerity.  Maybe because he didn't want the Prophet (of all people) to be accused of being lax.

As for your other crackpot theory, that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was "crazy", kindly enlighten us as to how a supposedly "crazy" person was able to so successfully change not just Arabia but the whole world?  If he was crazy, how was he able to make competent decisions in the heat of battle?  How was he able to negotiate peace treaties with various tribes?  How would a "crazy" person have accomplished so much?

I don't see why not.  Was Hitler crazy?  Lots of people thought so.  One of our own local historical notables, Louis Riel, also made competent decisions in battle, but he also (allegedly) talked to God.  For that matter, one of our prime ministers, William Lyon Mackenzie King, also had a lot of wacky spiritual experiences (including seances where he talked to his deceased dog), and yet he was a very competent leader.  It's not that surprising.

LOL Well, for one thing, he could have accepted the Meccans offer in exchange for not preaching against their religion.  Having made his enemies desperate enough to give him all the things he wanted, why did he reject their offer?  Why did he choose to live a simple life, using only a leather bed?  Why did he deliberately do more religious acts than he required of his followers?  Why did he, when he died, have only a white mule, his swords and some land?  Imagine!  The most powerful man in Arabia had no wealth at the time he died?  Where did the wealth go?  Even the land he had left was given in charity.

Muhammad had a total of fifteen wives, as many as eleven at one time, plus several female slaves as concubines.  That in itself is a measure of wealth.  More to the point, why would he need a lot of tangible wealth?  As God's Prophet, who would/could refuse him anything he wanted?  

You see, Ron?  Your crackpot ideas are utterly ridiculous!  But don't worry.  You can still live in your own world and refuse to believe in Muhammad (peace be upon him).  No one cares!  But on the Day of Judgment, you might look back on these conversations and kick yourself!

Unless of course it turns out that Gautama Buddha or Guru Nanak or any of a hundred other religious leaders had the true religion?  Again, why choose Muhammad instead of all those others?