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seekshidayath
Senior Member
Female
Islam
Joined: 26 March 2006
Location: India
Status: Offline
Points: 3357
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Posted: 26 February 2010 at 2:01am |
Calvin !! i was gifted a book today. And you know what it was - 'The Authority of Sunnah'. Am reading that.
I had no time, to lookin to your post. But insha Allah, by sunday, {since shall look at those questions, what exactly they are}
I was very excited to get such gift. Look, how well, Allah swt helped me
By the way, your lines are the same as Haris. Only one simple question to you. You must have offered salah earlier. Qur'an does n't teach us how many units {rakat} of salah shud one offer, and how shud we offer, and what shud we recite while performing salah. My simple question to you is,how shud one offer salah, when you insist that hadiths shud not be taken
And kindly note QURAN IS COMPLETE. I repeated many times that BY FOLLOWING SUNNAH, AND BY STUDYING HADITH, ONE IS FOLLOWING THE COMMAND OF ALLAH.
My second question to you is, when Allah swt repeatedly ordered us in Qur'an to take Prophet sallal lahu alaihi wasallam, as ideal, how shud we take him, as we don't live in his days..
Kindly do answer these questions
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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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martha
Senior Member
Joined: 30 October 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 1140
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Posted: 26 February 2010 at 2:24am |
Salams Seeks,
I am not worried if you are tough on me. If Allah was tough on me that would be a different matter.
See, I was not born muslim. Hayfa will understand that for us reverts it is very different. It isn't just following the religion, it has other impacts on our daily life. We are conscientious and have to enquire.
Seeks, you and I are like opposite ends of the magnets. In our own way we aim for the same things in this life and the next.
Muslims say religion is a way of life. Imagine how you would feel and cope with living as a Catholic for example. Do you not think it would be difficult for you to make Catholic living a way of life? Forget about which religion is right or wrong here..just try to imagine the difficulties faced...no other like minded people close by..family members avoiding you. Try to imagine this.
Perhaps then you would understand the difficulties faced for reverts.
Then try to imagine all Catholics saying different things about the stories and life of..hmm..Jesus, Mary, things they did and said...which way they performed prayer, how many times a day they did it. What they ate and drank to break a fast. What side they slept on. If you can perfom wudu in the snow when there is no water....
NOw as naive as it might sound, for some reverts, when they first come to Islam, they think all muslims say and follow pretty much the same things. The Shia's and Sunnis have obvious outwardly rituals, but as Hayfa said on the whole people(muslims) come to their own conclusions about information out there.
So...then there is added confusion for a revert. Then you get mullahs/imams/scholars..all varying. I have seen that a lot. NOw for a straightforward, logical thinking person like me...that does not make sense.
That then brings us to the question of hadiths. Which to follow, which not to. Recently I was talking to a Shia friend of mine on line. They were also confused for a while, to the extent they wanted to change to Sunni. For certain reasons they did not change. Following Sunni did not offer the answers either. So now they say they are muslim with no prefix.
We can continue to discuss all these different mannerisms and rituals of a religion. Who is right, who is wrong. We will never be in complete agreement with another.
I am more than happy for people to point out my errors and say I am wrong, that I have gone agaisnt Islam, whatever they want to say, but hey, it is my life, it is my decision and I will do what is best for my body and innerself to bring me closer to God.
TBH I have learnt more this past 2 weeks than I have in 6years altogether. Regardless of what our member haris has said, whether others say he is wrong or not, whether he is a follower of Rashad Khalifa or not, he has in fact been consistant, and he does make a lot of sense. ANd I admire that in a person. He actually KNOWS what he is saying, and believes it too.
So... you now want to know where I am I guess. I will read the Quran and follow God the best way I know how, not the way other people think is best for me.
Lol, not that it matters, but you tried to make a point that I was not respectful to Muhammed(pbuh)because I forgot to say pbuh. That is rare I have to say for me not to do so. BUt actually I think for most of the time I have said salaams to you and other members when addressing them? BUt you did not say salaams to me Seeks? Do we not say that to fellow muslims? It starts to then go beyond the ridiculous.
I think I have learned enough for the time being in this forum re: Religion. I will visit to join in on other non-religious matters from time to time...so please excuse me if I find replying to current topics rather insignificant for my progress. My intentions are good.
Perhaps I will send a smiley instead of answering with words.
Have a good day
Asalam alaikum :)
Edited by martha - 26 February 2010 at 2:26am
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some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set
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seekshidayath
Senior Member
Female
Islam
Joined: 26 March 2006
Location: India
Status: Offline
Points: 3357
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Posted: 26 February 2010 at 3:20am |
Walaikum Salaam
Am sorry Martha, if i had missed to say salaam to you. I just looked back, i answered your salaam. I did even say salaam to you.
Am extremely sorry if i misconcepted you anywhere, while discussions. I now, understand you. Once again, am sorry for it.
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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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calvindamenace
Newbie
Male
Joined: 27 January 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 27
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Posted: 02 March 2010 at 7:40am |
seekshidayath wrote:
I had no time, to lookin to your post. But insha Allah, by sunday, {since shall look at those questions, what exactly they are} |
Guess it wasn't Allah will for me to get an answer.. Even pass Sunday. Anyway, to make it easier for you (seems like you neet it) I decided to post these questions once more in this post.
seekshidayath wrote:
Well, Martha and calvin, there's no direct command of Allah swt in the Qur'an about dogs to be eaten. {Am sorry for giving a senseless example, as i was reading of dogs in Islam yesterday, so holded that in my mind }
Well, there's no direct command not to eat a dog but there's one for a pig, right? I doubt that it was forgotten to mention such for a dog. And then hadith all of a sudden make dogs.. Not clean? Show me in Quran where it says that they are not clean animals. Thank you.
Regarding contradictions, for example these days i was debating over permissibility of celebration of Prophet's birthday in Islam. There is variation of views . Scholars contradict. Both the types, prove from Qur'an and sunnah, as its permissible and not permissible. What to do in that case.We can take up any ruling, that which we feel is correct. We shud not follow our desires. But there's an insight within us, and Allah swt knows us very well. If we are true seekers, we will get true guidance from Allah swt.
And how many are there such examples? How many times are you going to rely on someone instead on relying on God's word?
At matters where Qur'an and Sunnah are absolutely silent, and when we take up any ruling from the scholar, which we feel it appropriate, and which are much closer to Quran and sunnah, then we are not questioned by Allah swt for that. Nor, is it a sin. Allah swt surely guides sincere seekers .
Sample, what if a scholar tells it is permissible to have an oral sex with my wife and I find it ok with me because I do believe it's ok, but at the end when I come in front of Almighty it is sin? If you can't have a 100% assurance on what is sin and what is not with a book of God!! and have to guide yourself by guessing or relying on someone's opinion, then what kind of a "clear path" are we talking about here? And may I ask you, who told you that you are not going to be questioned by Allah for taking up rulings made up by scholars? How do you know it wouldn't be a sin? Show me such thing in Quran.
If the Muslim has enough knowledge to enable him to compare the views of the scholars based on the evidence and to decide which is more likely to be correct, and he can tell what is more correct and more likely to be correct, then he must do that, because Allaah has commanded us to refer disputed matters to the Qur’aan and Sunnah, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):
“(And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allaah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination”[al-Nisa’ 4:59]
So he should refer the disputed matter to the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and whatever appears to him to be more correct, based on the evidence, is what he should follow, because what is obligatory is to follow the evidence, and he may refer to the words of the scholars to help him understand the evidence.
One's going to see a scholar cause his knowledge on some matters is not sufficient, right? So how can he compare and decide what's more correct? It just doesn't make sence.
If their opinions differ, then he should follow the one who is most trustworthy and most knowledgeable. This is like when a person falls sick – may Allaah give us all good health – and he looks for the most trustworthy and knowledgeable doctor so that he can go to him, because he is most likely to give him the right treatment than anyone else. It is more important to be on the safe side in religious matters than in worldly ones.
How do you decide who's more trustworthy in an age of information? This is not old days where you had to travel to a nearby village to see an old guy who'd explain to you his views... Can you even imagine how many different points of views you can read online? You just might spent an eternity reading..
It is not permissible for the Muslim to follow whatever scholarly opinion suits his desires if it goes against the evidence, or to seek fatwas from those who he thinks are going to be lenient in their fatwas.
Again, who's to say which scholar is right on a matter that botheres me?
Rather he has to be on the safe side when it comes to his religion, and ask the scholars who have the most knowledge and are most fearing of Allaah.
This is amazing. Answer me please; which scholars do poses more knowledge? Addresses and phone numbers would be great.
It is not permissible for the Muslim to follow the errors and mistakes of the scholars, for that combines all kinds of evil. Hence the scholars said: whoever follows that concerning which the scholars differed, and takes the easiest of their fatwas, becomes a heretic, or close enough. Ighaathat al-Lahfaan, 1/228. Heresy means hypocrisy.
We are walking in circles here... Like I mentioned above, we go to see a scholar due to the luck of knowledge, how do we know if he's wrong? And yet if he is wrong we can't follow him. Guess this made sence for you somehow. (??)
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P.S. Seems like we are not going nowhere and the whole process moves really slow (maybe it's because of the type of the question or maybe and it seems like it not that many muslims have answers to such question and the ones that do aren't that ...competent. No offence seekshadiyath, but I wonder why is it only you that answer? Anyway, you are more than welcome to answer to this post while I'll move on to my next subject which I’ll post next. Guess it will be salah .
Edited by calvindamenace - 02 March 2010 at 7:54am
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seekshidayath
Senior Member
Female
Islam
Joined: 26 March 2006
Location: India
Status: Offline
Points: 3357
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Posted: 02 March 2010 at 6:36pm |
My apologies Calvin for not replying you. Thanx for bringing up the post.
Well, there's no direct command not to eat a dog but there's one for a pig, right? I doubt that it was forgotten to mention such for a dog. And then hadith all of a sudden make dogs.. Not clean? Show me in Quran where it says that they are not clean animals. Thank you
Calvin, there are many things in the Qur'an which are not direct. Anyways, when we find no direct command from Qur'an, we lookinto hadith. Hadith {which are the the desirous sayings of Prophet, but are from Allah },. If a hadith forbades us, we stop it and when it is silent too, we can take either.
And how many are there such examples? How many times are you going to rely on someone instead on relying on God's word?
Okay, can you take out from Qur'an, if we are to celebrate birthday of Prophet or not ?
One's going to see a scholar cause his knowledge on some matters is not sufficient, right? So how can he compare and decide what's more correct? It just doesn't make sence.
We don't blindly follow scholars Calvin. By the way these scholars give us rulings from Qur'an and sunnah
You did not write to me about this ayah ? - "�(And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allaah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination�[al-Nisa� 4:59] " How will you interpret this ? How will you refer back to messenger ? Qur'an is for all the people even after Prophet. How shud i refer to the messenger ?
How do you decide who's more trustworthy in an age of information? This is not old days where you had to travel to a nearby village to see an old guy who'd explain to you his views... Can you even imagine how many different points of views you can read online? You just might spent an eternity reading
Simple example, check your selves. You are not taking anything from my post. Not a point do you agree, Its just because you don't trust me. Neither am going to learn anything from you, since i don't trust you {to be plain and frank]
Remember Calvin, we daily make duas and even while in salah at surah Fatiha, we pray Allah to guide us to the rightpath. Believe me, when we sincerely make prayers, Allah swt surely guides us. He makes true sources reach us. We do trust him and take. Mind it, that we reach out scholars, only when few issues are not apparent to us.
You must have read that ayah many times in which Allah swt commands us to ask, those who know. What do you mean by this ? Can u kindly interpret it ?
Again, who's to say which scholar is right on a matter that botheres me?
It's answered above
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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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seekshidayath
Senior Member
Female
Islam
Joined: 26 March 2006
Location: India
Status: Offline
Points: 3357
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Posted: 02 March 2010 at 6:45pm |
Our discussions are taking us nowhere, calvin. Anyways, i wish you to answer my questions before we move forward. Those two from my above post, and the other which i had been posting and reposting, as how shall we take Prophet Muhammad {sallal lahu alayhi wasallam} as our Ideal, when Qur'an commands us such.
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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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calvindamenace
Newbie
Male
Joined: 27 January 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 27
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Posted: 03 March 2010 at 12:09am |
seekshidayath wrote:
Okay, can you take out from Qur'an, if we are to celebrate birthday of Prophet or not ?
Never would a human being whom GOD blessed with the scripture and prophethood say to the people, "Idolize me beside GOD." Instead, (he would say), "Devote yourselves absolutely to your Lord alone," according to the scripture you preach and the teachings you learn.(3:79) Well, there it says it all, don't you think? In fact, isn't that what christians do - celebrate the birth of Christ? I mean it does seem like muslims bring Muhammad to such level where he becomes... almost as God, I mean for God’s sake you even put him in an every prayer!! (And as far as my understanding goes a prayer should be for a glorifying God, right?)
You did not write to me about this ayah ? - "“(And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allaah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination”[al-Nisa’ 4:59] " How will you interpret this ? How will you refer back to messenger ? Qur'an is for all the people even after Prophet. How shud i refer to the messenger ?
Yeah, I wasn't a muslim for long, and yet even to me it seems like so much stuff is outdated. Like this verse. Honestly, I have no answer to this question. I’ll research more on this one. Thanks. By the way, it says "refer it to Allah and His Messenger", not to scholars or “learned persons", right? Are trying to say that by communicating through scholar we somehow communicate with God and Messenger? Or by reading hadith you do? Do you tolerate all hadith or not? If yes, I can point you to hadith where women are compared to dogs or monkeys (Bukhari 8/102 and Hanbel 4/86)... Is that OK with you? Or you choose which ones to accept and which not to?
You must have read that ayah many times in which Allah swt commands us to ask, those who� know. What do you mean by this ? Can u kindly interpret it ?
Bring up the verse please.
You are not taking anything from my post. Not a point do you agree, Its just because you don't trust me. Neither am going to learn anything from you, since i don't trust you {to be plain and frank]
How can I trust a woman if... "Women are naturally, morally and religiously defective".(Bukhary).
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P.S. Please, do not compare me to haris, since he still considers himself a muslim, even if it's a muslim that abolished hadith (Quran only muslim ??) and I on the other side, don't consider myself muslim no more. I am not pro or against hadith, nor I am trying to prove anyone wrong, it's a simple conversation (that sometimes get's to stage of arguing) on things that I find difficult, insulting or simple silly in islam. I am just looking for rationality (that I was told existed in this religion), asking questions and welcoming answers. Sometimes I get anxious and not so nice, yeah I know, but that's how I am. Sorry if I offended anyone by stating my thought out in open.
Edited by calvindamenace - 03 March 2010 at 1:03am
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seekshidayath
Senior Member
Female
Islam
Joined: 26 March 2006
Location: India
Status: Offline
Points: 3357
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Posted: 03 March 2010 at 1:39am |
If you can't have a 100% assurance on what is sin and what is not with a book of God!! and have to guide yourself by guessing or relying on someone's opinion, then what kind of a "clear path" are we talking about here? And may I ask you, who told you that you are not going to be questioned by Allah for taking up rulings made up by scholars? How do you know it wouldn't be a sin? Show me such thing in Quran. One of your quotes was not answered. I asked it to a person {Br. Abuzaid[, whom i trust for his knowledge in deen. This was his answer, which shall insha Allah, satisfy you.
Islam is clear path in the sense that it tell us what should be our faith clearly without leavin any ambiguity with regard to Allah and His attribute.
Now, fact that there are some disputed issues in Islam does not make it ambiguous religion. Dispute arises just because Allah himself have not made something clear to us and He being all knowing did it deliberately. Intelligence is one of the great gift of Allah SW that He had given us and this is to be used in the matter of Deen as well as in acquiring worldly means. Islam encourages us to think and ponder upon issues instead of giving us complete and rigid solutions. Morever, when it comes to issues of jurisprudence, many of the issues are related to context and condition in which we live. So, giving a rigid solution would make more problems and sometime it would become impossible to follow the ruling in varying contexts.
So, it is flexiblity and ease that Allah SW has given us considering human weakness and considering the fact that Islam should be practiced in varying environment till doomsday.
Now, regarding the question that what is proof that if we follow a genuine scholar in disputed issue we will not be questioned.
This is how it goes.
1. It has be clear from Quran that we must obey Allah and His messenger.
2. But, obeying Allah and His messenger is subjected to knowledge a person acquire
3. Everybody cannot get same degree of knowledge because of the varying context in which they are born in and because of various degree of intelligence, memory and attitudes humans have.
4. Some of the people who specialized in Islamic knowledge by devoting their full time of Islam knowledge must be considered more knowledgeable subjected to their degree of intelligence and sincerity.
5. Thus practically it is not possible for a common person to acquire enough knowledge to form an opinion in disputed issues.
6. I am not willing to devote my time to prove a common person wrong if he insists that he has enough knowledge on a subject and can form an opinion based on his own knowledge and intelligence. He will be judged by Allah SW. If he is right he may get reward for it and if he wrong he is answerable to Allah SW. This is he who has to justify his act on the day of judgement.
7. Now, what if there is a dispute between scholars who has sound knowledge, wisdom and sincerity? Well, for a common person, he has to be sincere in obeying Allah and His messenger and should do his best to get most right opinion. If in this process he err or the scholars to whom he follows make mistake, the person cannot be responsible.
8. Proof! well it is simply established by the last verse in Surah Baqarah
On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray:) "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith."
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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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