THE BIBLE SAYS TO WORSHIP JESUS IS IDOLAT

minuteman wrote: You have agreed and then disagreed.

I agreed that praying to saints isn't a spiritually healthy practice. I disagreed with your actual definition of prayer.

minuteman wrote: I stress the point again for your understanding that we Muslims do not call any dead man to intercede on our behalf. We always pray to God only and ask everything from HIm. Otherwise, if we have a living leader, we may speak to him or write to him requesting him to pray to The God for our such and such need.

yes, me too.

minuteman wrote: But your last sentence means much different. You still suggest that it is alright to call any one who has passed away to intercede with God on our behalf.

I suggest that it is neither idolatrous nor blasphemous (which is what the original topic was about).

minuteman wrote: � �Nobody can pray to any one but God. By the word pray, perhaps you mean calling them only in prayers. Even that is wrong if they are no more alive. We cannot call them and reqest them for anything at all if they are not alive.�If any such person is living then it is alright to approach him for prayers so that he will pray to God for our purpose (our need to be granted).� I do not know if I have explained it well or not.

yes, your meaning is clear, and I agree with you, that we should not call on the dead to intercede with God on our behalf. yet prayer is not limited to being an act of worship, and so I also do not believe that asking a request of a dead saint is idolatrous or blasphemous.

seekshidayath wrote: <FONT face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif" size=1>Thomasd, my question to you differs the topic. You said that you believe� <FONT face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif" size=1>� <FONT face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif" size=1>"Jesus was created by God and thus the only perfect human being to ever have existed" <FONT face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif" size=1>� <FONT face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif" size=1>What do you say about Adam AS. He was also created by God. Likewise who is the creature of all the creations around us. These mountains, and rivers , birds and animals --- Allah swt is the only creator.Don't you agree to it ? <FONT face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif" size=1>� <FONT face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif" size=1>What do you say ?� �

excellent question. Adam is actually an interesting parallel to Jesus. both were created to be perfect and yet have free will. Both were tempted (the tree, and Jesus's 40 days in the desert). The difference being that Adam gave in to temptation.

w.r.t. you question about creation. Allah is the original creator, yet the Bible says He crafted us in His own image. Obviously this doesn't mean physically, it means spiritually. And so Christians believe that part of that is that He gifted us with creativity...the ability to create new things. We don't always use that ability to His glory as was intended for us, but thats where free will and our fallen nature come out.

robin wrote: That is not quite right as Cahtloics pray to mary and the saints, that is an act of worship!

any conversation with God (or other spiritual beings) is prayer, regardless of whether or not it is intended as worship, to express thanks, or to ask for something.

Catholics (if there are any of you out there and I'm slightly wrong in my explanation of this, correct me), believe that the saints have a sort of direct line to God (which we all do really...), and that they have been given power by God to do miracles, and so when they pray to saints they are asking them to relay a request to God, or to perform small miracles.

I personally don't hold that belief...God cares about all of us and is always listening to our requests, but I don't see anything idolatrous about it.