a Surah the like thereof |
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TG12345
Senior Member Male Joined: 16 December 2012 Status: Offline Points: 1146 |
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Posted: 05 June 2016 at 6:32pm |
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Thanks for sharing this, it was interesting. Curiously, the Bible also is similar in this regard. Many prophets refer to the Israelites as "my people", but Jesus just called them "Israel". Matthew 15:24 He answered, �I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.� If you type in "my people" or "my nation" into biblegateway.com search, you will find many prophets saying this to Israelites but never Jesus. https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=%22my+people%22&qs_version=NIV&limit=500 https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=%22my+nation%22&qs_version=NIV&limit=500 Linguistics can be fun :) |
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TG12345
Senior Member Male Joined: 16 December 2012 Status: Offline Points: 1146 |
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Assalamu alaikum, my brother. Hope Ramadan is going well for you and your loved ones. My apologies for not responding earlier.
Yes there can be exceptions. As long as there are no verses that state such an exception cannot occur. If that were to be the case, the exception would be a contradiction.
In the same way, Him saying that he created no man with two hearts in his body would be contradicted by the existence of a person who did indeed have two hearts in his chest... unless the statement made was a metaphorical one and not a physical one.
Yes, but the difference between this exception and the ones you provided is that there are no statements that say God did not make people except of a man and a woman. On the other hand, there is a verse that says God did not create any man with two hearts in his body. This was either meant as a metaphor, or the life of George Lippert proved the Quran false. The tafsirs of the verse point to the first possibility (ie that it was a metaphor), not the second.
Had the Quran's author wanted to say this, he could have said no man has two legs in his stomach. Treating this verse literally falsifies the Quran. Treating it as a metaphor may take away the miracle claim discussed in the video but it at least does not falsify its text.
But the linguistic subtlety (which would be derived from a literal translation) comes with a scientific error.
No argument with you there, TheSaint. However, this verse is not one of them.
If He did, such a statement would have been erroneous.
Alhamdullilah! :)
An exception is one thing. A contradiction is another. If the verse is meant literally, the existence of people with two hearts in their chest would contradict and falsify it. The Bible has not only exceptions, but many contradictions also. It is not the word of God.
Of course there is a scientific error. It is possible for a man to have two hearts in his body. The cases we have looked at shown this. Nice debating with you brother! God bless you and take care! Edited by TG12345 - 05 June 2016 at 6:23pm |
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The Saint
Senior Member Joined: 07 November 2014 Status: Offline Points: 832 |
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Yes, so saying that God created Adam and Jesus without parents is not a contradiction of the saying that He made people from two parents... as one could say that Adam and Eve and Jesus were exceptions.
Are you saying and accepting that there could be exceptions to God's laws? If that is the case then our debate comes to a conclusive end. Which means, that there are exceptions to God's rules. However, Him saying that He did not make any people but from a man and woman would contradict this. Sure. In every other example I brought up from the Quran where God says He does not do anything, you believe there are no exceptions... and rightly so, since that would be a contradiction! If I can recall correctly it was you who threw-up exceptions, i.e. Lippert. Then I countered that by much more famous and eminent exceptions. It may be implied that the woman may have two hearts in her body, but the statement that Allah did not place two hearts in the chest of a man is false... unless the verse is a metaphor. I am amazed to note that you have still not grasped what was discussed in that video? To wit, the emphasis in that video on the fact that a woman may have two hearts in her body because she gets pregnant but a man does not get pregnant. If the verse is a metaphor, it is no longer an error but then it ceases to be a miracle in subtlety since the heart being referred to is a metaphor and not a physical thing... in which case a woman could also not have two hearts in her body. Either the verse is meant literally and the subtlety comes along with a scientific error or the the verse is meant as a metaphor and the lack of scientific error comes with the lack of a miracle. The verse, I have already said could have a different meaning. One, that you appear to prefer. But in an indirect and subtle reference we see a linguistic subtlety also. OK. In that case, this verse is as miraculous as 40:23 or many of the other verses in the Quran which state something that is already obvious. Quran states things in its own inimitable manner and quite few things it says are miracles, in the sense that at the time those things were revealed no one knew about them on earth. Did He anywhere say He created no human being with no legs or no human being with three legs? Not that I know of. But I would not rule-out the possibility that He, in His infinite wisdom, has said something in that context, even if indirectly. Great. So here again you accept that God does not destroy wrong-doers without warning because there is a verse saying He does not destroy wrong-doers without warning. I accept. In this case, accepting that God may have created men with more than two hearts in their chests despite a verse where God says He didn't would also be illogical and in my opinion reflect a double standard (sorry if I am being offensive, not my intent but that is the way I see it). God does make exceptions, we have already seen that in the case of Jesus PBUH. But if I look-up the Bible I shall be able to provide exceptions by the thousands! So, you do not really have a case at all. Only you are trying to make one. I could see why you would claim that the verse is a miracle by default. I don't see how you can continue to insist it is linguistically precise without seeing the obvious scientific error. There is obviously no scientific error. As per universal law, women in pregnancy may have two hearts in her body but a man cannot have them because he cannot get pregnant. I hope you recognise the truth of the statement in this situation. |
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and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
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The Saint
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Let us look at another episode of Nouman Ali Khan's video which speaks about the difference in the way Moosa AS and Isa AS address the people of Israel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-ULa2JzPG0 From app the 8:43 minutes onwards. Another pointer to exemplary awareness and precision of the author. |
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and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
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TG12345
Senior Member Male Joined: 16 December 2012 Status: Offline Points: 1146 |
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I could see why you would claim that the verse is a miracle by default. I don't see how you can continue to insist it is linguistically precise without seeing the obvious scientific error. Edited by TG12345 - 01 May 2016 at 6:45pm |
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The Saint
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Alaikum salaam, brother.
Waalaikumassalaam But they also don't say He *didn't* create people in any other way. I have just recollected that He does speak of other methods of human creation. Saying God did things one way does not exclude the possibility that He did things also in other ways. Saying He did not do things in any other way does exclude. Depends on how he speaks! He may speak categorically or He may simply make a statement of fact. He may be definitive on an occasion or He may speak specifically about something. Correct. And the Quran has an explicit statement that God did not create any man with two hearts in his body. Is that statement explicit? No. The speaker says in the video says that Allah did not place two hearts in the chest of a man. But it is implied that a woman may have two hearts in her body but not her chest. That is the subtlety of the Quran. OK, so you are arguing that the whole Quran is a miracle for this reason. Yes. Yet there is nothing miraculous about the verse about no man having been created with two hearts in his body on its own. Here, it is an example of a subtlety in language. To be seen in the background of the revelation described in my previous post. That isn't what I asked, bro :) I asked will their *religions* be accepted? No, no other religion shall be accepted. But He also said He created no man with two hearts in his body. And we have seen examples of men who do. Neither did He say there will be human beings with no legs or, one with three legs. But there are such. And how do you know that? :) Is it by any chance from verses like 6:131 This is because your Lord would not destroy the (populations of) towns for their wrong-doing (i.e. associating others in worship along with Allah) while their people were unaware (so the Messengers were sent). Yes. There may be others as well. OK I think I understand now. Since you believe the entire Quran is a miracle due to its revelation over several years, this verse automatically is one also, right? If I misunderstand what you said, please correct me brother. Actually yes, the entire Quran is a miracle of miracles. Therefore, all ayahs in it are special and possibly miraculous in some manner. This particular ayah is remarkable because of linguistic precision. |
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and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious |
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TG12345
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A verse that states God created no person but through the union of a man and a woman.
Simple. There is no verse stating that no person has been born except through the union of a man and a woman. If such a verse existed, the existence of Adam and Eve and Jesus would be contradictory and disprove the statement. Yet there is a verse that states that no man was created with two hearts in his body. If this is meant to be taken literally, the existence of Lippert and others disproves it. It is however meant to be taken as a metaphor, it is not disproven- though one could argue it is a clumsy one and God could have chosen to use an example that is true both physically and spiritually.
Yes
Except the difference is that there is no verse stating about people not having two human parents that exists about people not having two hearts. Therein lies the difference. Edited by TG12345 - 22 April 2016 at 6:42am |
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TG12345
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Alaikum salaam, brother.
But they also don't say He *didn't* create people in any other way. Saying God did things one way does not exclude the possibility that He did things also in other ways. Saying He did not do things in any other way does exclude.
Yes. This is why the Quran does not say "God created no human but through a man and a woman".
Correct. And the Quran has an explicit statement that God did not create any man with two hearts in his body.
OK, so you are arguing that the whole Quran is a miracle for this reason. Yet there is nothing miraculous about the verse about no man having been created with two hearts in his body on its own.
That isn't what I asked, bro :) I asked will their *religions* be accepted?
But He also said He created no man with two hearts in his body. And we have seen examples of men who do.
And how do you know that? :) Is it by any chance from verses like 6:131 This is because your Lord would not destroy the (populations of) towns for their wrong-doing (i.e. associating others in worship along with Allah) while their people were unaware (so the Messengers were sent).
OK I think I understand now. Since you believe the entire Quran is a miracle due to its revelation over several years, this verse automatically is one also, right? If I misunderstand what you said, please correct me brother. |
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