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Hayfa View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hayfa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: illegal immigrants
    Posted: 29 December 2009 at 8:54am
Aslaam ALaikum

If we have Islam then we have fewer excuses to get it wrong.


The point is IF. When I was last in Pakistan I said to someone that it would have been nice to be born into Islam on a certain level. They said. "
Why? look around you most of these people do not even know how to pray." So to assume that they "know" may not be realistic. 

If we see returning soldiers from war come home, kill themselves, kill others, basically they end up completely mentally messed up why we cannot imagine this does not happen to the civilians faced with the same, often longer, continual violence? In fact based upon the fact that between 80-90% of all homicides are committed by men, for women to reach THIS point.. makes you wonder what is really going on in Chechnya. From everything I've read, its REALLY bad. So it is really quite possible they mentally 'flipped' a switch.  We don't know that is why it is dangerous to think we KNOW who will go to hell.

I would make a good educated guess that 99% of us on the website have ever experienced what those in Chechnya, the Congo, Palestine, Afghanistan, or North Korea go through.

It does not bother me that you call to attention bad actions. My point was saying "they will not see Jannah for their evil deeds."  Maybe if it was precursored with " Allah will decide their fate." No problem.  But who goes to Jannah is not at all up to us nor do any of us know.  That is my point.

Guess it gets to me becasue this is what my "Born Again" relatives told my sister right upon my mother's death, she is going to helll for xyz. Smile
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Chrysalis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 December 2009 at 6:41am
Originally posted by martha martha wrote:


Sister Chrysalis...I am grateful to you for your words. BUt I am disturbed when our brothers and sisters in Islam call non-muslims infidels and say they will go to hell. Do we try to correct them? We are no different to anyone in this life no matter what religion we follow. Yet I am corrected here for my comments it seems because I was critical of muslims not christians? It is all complex.

The main issue it seems is my own personal view? I guess we don't need to worry ourselves on that.


I think we do try to correct or reprimand our zealous brothers and sisters - both on and off the forum. You may have noticed that with some other members here already. However, we can only say & do so much - at the end of the day, the other Muslim will do what they strongly believe in. We should however make sure the approach we are taking doesn't drive those people away from us and make them cling all the more to their 'beliefs'. I wonder if people told Omar Al Farooq, the recent attempted Bomber to go and do something about his 'strong feelings' against Americans... rather than cribbing and stop being a coward ? ? ? These are weighty statements that shouldn't be used carelessly on others.

Our societies tend to expel & exclude zealots, - which only aggravates their issues because they lose that sense of community/bond/humanity. This makes it all the more easier to commit acts of violence, because you can disassociate yourself with the victims. If they were handled gently and  shown concern etc, I am sure it would help reduce the wounds in their hearts by a great deal.

So yes, I agree we should try to correct them and help them.


Also, I don't know what all the hullabaloo is about using words like 'Kaafir'
 & 'Infidel'. Christians, Jews & Hindus are welcome to call me a Kafir & Infidel with respect to their beliefs. It just denotes that a person rejects a particular doctrine. It is a synonym for unbeliever/disbeliever. It is in no way a slur.

Also, I don't think that people comment on or criticize your opinions because you are critical of muslims - we do that do each other all the time. In fact, I for one appreciate you pointing out what you find to be an issue with the Ummah. You are part of it, hence it is not only your right but your responsibility to do so. Better to clean out our own closet rather than invite someone else to do so. . .





"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wisdomseeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 December 2009 at 3:55am
Assalamu alaikum sister Martha,

Deciding on other people's fate, is a far off thing, i meant commenting on someone's eternal fate, perhaps i used the wrong word (decide).

Moreover, it is not because you commented on muslims that you are being "corrected" here (that was not what i intended to do, but just politely bring to your notice that you might be just overstepping ) , it is because whether muslim or non muslim we are just not doing the right thing when we comment on someone's fate on the judgment day. As for me, I try staying away from making all kinds of judgmental comments whether they be about muslims or non muslims.

See, what we know for sure, we can at least comment on that, but even this not without caution. Like, we know that a certain non muslim, who is dead, died on a religion other than islam, will go to hell. But a muslim on other hand who believes in Allah, shall go to heaven though may be after suffering his own amount of punishments in the hell for the wrongs he did.

But even this we have to say, with caution, for what and how one's heart feels is a secret between that person and Allah, whether he be a muslim or a non muslim. leave commenting on someone's fate aside, we are, according to a hadith not supposed to even praise someone without saying "this is what I feel but Allah knows best."

This just goes to show, how much importance is given in Islam to what we speak and how.

And Allah knows best.

May Allah guide us all surely He guides whom He wills.

Edited by wisdomseeker - 29 December 2009 at 4:10am
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martha View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote martha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 December 2009 at 3:09am
Walaikum asalam,

wisdomseeker, I hear what you are saying and you have explained it really well. My comment that these people would not see Jannah..I did not say I would decide that.

sister Hayfa..yes sure, Allah is most merciful. He is also just. He has to be because if He was not then all of us can excuse ourselves of our bad deeds. Allah can and will forgive who He choses, but for those judged guilty or at fault then there is also a punishment. Maybe I do not explain myself well these days. BUt It is unlikely that all the people involved in the Beslan seige had mental problems as the act was premeditated. BUt I agree that in certain instances people can be mentally unstable and interpret things wrong. So these people we should help if we can. And ALlah will judge them accordingly.
Hayfa, you said I often condemn other muslims. No, I am critical of muslims. Many times this is because we should not be so judgemental of non-muslims and should be patient. I have no need to be critical of Christians and we should help them understand about Islam,for those that reject it we can feel sorry for them. BUt it is not wrong to point out errors of our own brothers and sisters. So..it is not a case of condemning. Instead I would see it as helping. If we have Islam then we have fewer excuses to get it wrong.
Abraham Lincoln said 'he has a right to criticise who has a heart to help' So I do love my brothers and sisters in Islam. If I did not then I would bother less with my replies here. Of course people matter to me, but Allah is also just and I trust in Him most of all. Perhaps this is why I worded my previous post in that way.

Sister Chrysalis...I am grateful to you for your words. BUt I am disturbed when our brothers and sisters in Islam call non-muslims infidels and say they will go to hell. Do we try to correct them? We are no different to anyone in this life no matter what religion we follow. Yet I am corrected here for my comments it seems because I was critical of muslims not christians? It is all complex.

The main issue it seems is my own personal view? I guess we don't need to worry ourselves on that.
some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set
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Chrysalis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 December 2009 at 1:17am
Originally posted by wisdomseeker wisdomseeker wrote:

Assalamu alaikum,

Well..I think we are none to decide who is going to hell and who is going to heaven. I am not saying that what those muslims did was right....but what they did, how they did and why they did is a matter between them and Allah, when it comes to the matters of this world, we may use our sense of judgment and all the available evidences and then arrive at a decision or conclusion about that particular event,.....but when it is about an eternal judgment, that of the last day, of heaven and hell...then we can just not say who goes to heaven and who goes to hell....that is between that person and Allah. We do not know and hence must not arrive at conclusions.

Can we tell for sure, if we are going to heaven? No we cannot, if one does, then one blasphemes....coz he is trying to claim knowledge to that, which is with Allah alone.


Good points !!! Infact reminds me of some ahadith - even Prophet Muhammad used to say about himself, that I shall not go into Jannah except with Allah's mercy ! subhanAllah.

Also, just like we should not be saying whether someone is going to hell - I have read that we should not also say that.. "so & so is going to heaven" - bcz that is like saying we have knowledge of the unseen, which only Allah has. Once read a hadith (which was sahih as far as i remember) that once a person died in battle, and the sahaba were saying So & So is definitely going straight to Jannah, he fought so bravely. To which Prophet Muhammad said, how do you know for sure? I was just told that while he was lying in the battlefield, he could'nt stand the pain and killed himself. And suicide is haraam in islam. !!! Cry


"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wisdomseeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 December 2009 at 5:16pm
Assalamu alaikum,

Well..I think we are none to decide who is going to hell and who is going to heaven. I am not saying that what those muslims did was right....but what they did, how they did and why they did is a matter between them and Allah, when it comes to the matters of this world, we may use our sense of judgment and all the available evidences and then arrive at a decision or conclusion about that particular event,.....but when it is about an eternal judgment, that of the last day, of heaven and hell...then we can just not say who goes to heaven and who goes to hell....that is between that person and Allah. We do not know and hence must not arrive at conclusions.

Can we tell for sure, if we are going to heaven? No we cannot, if one does, then one blasphemes....coz he is trying to claim knowledge to that, which is with Allah alone.

May Allah guide us all surely He guides whom He wills.
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Hayfa View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hayfa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 December 2009 at 2:13pm
We are taught, are we not, that wrongdoers do not get to Jannah?
 
 
Yes but you are saying YOU know for SURE That THEY all those people are going to hell???? Even if we take your argument.. we don't know. They may have been mentally ill for all we know.. WE DON't know.
 
I have to say Martha it is unusual to hear from you this . As you know Allah is MOST merciful.  You often seem eager to condemn any Muslim you perceive did something wrong.  When in fact as Muslims we should do our best to give each other the benefit of the doubt.  And without FULL information it is never our place to say anyone is going to hell... this is just as dangerous as many other acts.
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote martha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 December 2009 at 11:01am
Walaikum asalam,

We are taught, are we not, that wrongdoers do not get to Jannah? I am just re-enforcing that. I also firmly believe it too with regards to this topic.

It is irrelevant who actually killed the children. The muslims went in with the intention of murder, with bombs strapped to their bodies, with feet on detonators.

I am aware of the grievances these people had, that the Russians knew about it etc etc, but no one can say the Russians told them to actually go ahead and beseige the school.

This is not a case of saying I know what Allah knows. Of course I do not. But black is black, white is white, there is no grey area for this as far as I am concerned.




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