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Servetus View Drop Down
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Points: 2109 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Servetus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2008 at 12:36pm

Ron,

 

To my view, there is every reason to think, or to assume, that Jewish legal injunctions, when they stipulate a time limit, are quite possibly literal.  The Gaonate was operating in diaspora and many of the Mosaic laws, not to mention temple rites & rituals, were necessarily in abeyance.  That is part of the Jewish experience and sojourn.

 

One notes, for instance, and as you originally pointed out, that it is primarily among the Ashkenazim, or dwellers in (heretofore largely Christian) Europe and North America, that the prohibition against polygamy was most universally applied.  Among the Sephardim, on the other hand, who were often located in Islamic countries, the practice, according to the author of the article below, although increasingly discountenanced, was nevertheless continued.

 

Quote You wrote:  �The reasons Gershom banned it [polygamy] are if anything even stronger today than they were in his time.�

 

I haven�t read his decision, but if it involved the costs, then I would have to agree.  In fact, I sometimes wonder if one is ill-advised, from a financial standpoint, to take even one wife:  Smile

 

Quote �Even in the Orient monogamy [among Jews] soon became the rule and polygamy the exception; for only the wealthy could afford the luxury of many wives.�  (Jewish Encyclopedia)

 

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=425&letter=P

 

Thanks, again.  I hadn�t looked into this issue in detail until this ongoing discussion.

 

Best regards,

 

Serv
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2008 at 1:07pm

You're absolutely right, Servetus.  If you take "a thousand years" literally, then the ban technically expired a few years ago.  However, I don't think there is anything magical about a thousand years.  I think the phrase was intended to mean "for the forseeable future".  Anyway, I don't see any rush among Jewish rabbis bring back polygamy.  The reasons Gershom banned it are if anything even stronger today than they were in his time.

This issue is a lot like slavery, which is also mentioned in the Old Testament.  Both slavery and polygamy may have made sense in ancient times, when constant warfare meant a perpetual shortage of men and a periodic surplus of orphan (enemy) children; but they have no place in modern times.

That is not to say that there will never come a time when polygamy and even slavery may become acceptable or even beneficial again.  Perhaps if some horrible disease wiped out half of the male population, then both Christian and Jewish leaders would advocate a return to polygamy.  That's what I meant by a "living, progressive" religion.
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Servetus View Drop Down
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Points: 2109 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Servetus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2008 at 11:56am

Thank you, Ron.  I have reviewed the link that you kindly provided and notice that, at least as I read it, the rabbinic ban on polygyny is not necessarily perpetual:  

Quote �He [Gershom ben Judah] is famous for his religious bans within Judaism, which include: the prohibition of polygamy for 1,000 years.�

It sounds to me as though, given the years during which Gershom ben Judah lived and wrote, the ban on polygamy within Orthodox Judaism has either expired or soon will.

Best regards,

Serv
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2008 at 11:16am
Originally posted by Servetus Servetus wrote:

Ron,

Quote You wrote:  "Judaism did indeed permit polygamy thousands of years ago, but it no longer does �"

Could you please provide a source?  I am interested.  I would have thought that the reason we don�t see much Jewish polygamy is because the Torah is not (at least not yet) the law of the Land (of Israel, especially).  I don�t see �and neither have I read- where the laws of polygamy, or polygyny, in Judaism were ever either annulled or abrogated (by Judaism).  Have you read otherwise?

Serv

 
Well, I don't know much about Judaism myself, but you can find out just about anything you want from Google. Smile
 
Polygamy was banned for Ashkenazi Jews in the eleventh century by Rabbi Gershom ben Judah. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbenu_Gershom) Technically his ban extended only to Ashkenazi Jews (currently about 80% of all Jews); but most other Jews abide by it as well.  For all practical purposes, polygamy is no longer permissible in Judaism.
 
The thing you need to understand about Judaism and (especially) Christianity is that they are living, progessive religions.  Although the basic values, traditions and framework of belief are defined by scripture, the specifics are continually re-appraised and adapted to different times and places.  There are certainly "fundamentalists" who resist change and insist on a literal interpretation of ancient scripture (and who may still cling to polygamy), but they are small minority.
 
In Islam, on the other hand, it seems to me that the fundamentalist viewpoint is mainstream, and progressives are the minority.  Muhammad was the last prophet, the "door to ijtahad" is closed, and every detail of life was frozen for all time back in the seventh century.
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Points: 1397 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote believer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2008 at 3:03pm
I repeat:  GOD's first intentions:  man didn't listen.
 
Genesis 2
 
 24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
 
GOD did not will multiple wives but he did allow it.  Big differance here.
 

1 Timothy 3

2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

 12A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well.
 

Titus 1

6An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Servetus View Drop Down
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Points: 2109 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Servetus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2008 at 11:05am

Ron,

Quote You wrote:  "Judaism did indeed permit polygamy thousands of years ago, but it no longer does �"

Could you please provide a source?  I am interested.  I would have thought that the reason we don�t see much Jewish polygamy is because the Torah is not (at least not yet) the law of the Land (of Israel, especially).  I don�t see �and neither have I read- where the laws of polygamy, or polygyny, in Judaism were ever either annulled or abrogated (by Judaism).  Have you read otherwise?

Serv



Edited by Servetus - 17 May 2008 at 11:07am
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honeto View Drop Down
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Points: 2487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2008 at 9:21am
Ron,
what I did is to show refrances from the source that is claimed to be 'devine source' of those two believes (Christianity and Judaism). And that source does not teach against polygamy.
If now those people have made new rules that is fine with me. I am not arguing that.
believer have suggested that it was not a practice approved of God. I am a man of reason and I do my own homework on what I post. And according to my own studies those who are mentioned in this book (the Bible) practiced it as a normal way of life. The were teachers and Prophets who are followed and refrenced on other issues yet on this one you say, "no longer does".
If it was not for the man made laws, for example here in the US against ploygamy, many Christians of various sects (Mormons in particular) as well as other would have practiced it without making a fuss, and they do not say what you say.
If you put your trust in that book for guiding you into this life and you trust it enough to put your hereafter at risk, why is it that when it comes to matters like this you distance yourself from its teaching. Don't you have full belief and trust on this book and its teachings and practices??
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 17 May 2008 at 9:21am
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2008 at 7:34pm
honeto, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here.  Judaism did indeed permit polygamy thousands of years ago, but it no longer does; and mainstream Christianity never did.  Every Jew and every Christian knows this, and so does just about everyone else.  Do you really think you can convince anyone otherwise just by citing a few polygamous patriarchs?
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