Who Can Prove, Hadith is Prophet�s?

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nu001

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Posted: 27 March 2007 at 8:43pm

rami wrote:

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

The norm and standard is that ahadith are from rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] as proved by the scholars of ahadith, therefor the onus is on nu001 to prove each and every individual hadith is fabricated.

You are claiming something new not something this ummah has ever claimed in its entire history.

You can start with the muwatta, Imam al-Bukhari said that the soundest of all chains of transmission was "Malik, from Nafi`, from Ibn `Umar." [who, of course, narrated from the Messenger of Allah] The scholars of hadith call it the Golden Chain, and there are eighty narrations with this chain in the Muwatta�.

Here is a Translation of Malik's Muwatta.

Brother Rami

Reading your post, I feel that you have not read all the previous posts in the thread. Please read it, the prove exists there. Tell me which of the quranic verses are wrong (May Allah Forgive Us) to say that quran is the only source of law, Quran is detail-complete and needs no explanation etc etc etc .........

If you agree and believe in Allah's words then where from Hadith comes?

Then come about hadith; Mr. Bukhari says that these are reliable chains and we can believe it. So you believe it. Forget about his certificate, first tell me, why should I believe Bukhari himself that he was righteous? Any mandate he has from Allah to make laws? isn't it like Paul, Peter, Mathew, Luke describing what jesus said and did? Just think.

You tell me why Hadith is needed? If you know any reason, please tell me.

I really want a serious & friendly discussion; Let the truth be established for our benefit (That includes me)

Salam

"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"

rami

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Posted: 27 March 2007 at 2:17am

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

The norm and standard is that ahadith are from rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] as proved by the scholars of ahadith, therefor the onus is on nu001 to prove each and every individual hadith is fabricated.

You are claiming something new not something this ummah has ever claimed in its entire history.

You can start with the muwatta, Imam al-Bukhari said that the soundest of all chains of transmission was "Malik, from Nafi`, from Ibn `Umar." [who, of course, narrated from the Messenger of Allah] The scholars of hadith call it the Golden Chain, and there are eighty narrations with this chain in the Muwatta�.

Here is a Translation of Malik's Muwatta.

Edited by rami

Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.

amah

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Posted: 27 March 2007 at 1:44am

Bismillah...assalaamualaikum

Shukran bro sign for "reviving" this topic (though I have still not read your post). I wish to discuss this with br nu and I will try to the best of my abilities. I am just short of time. Will be back later Allah willing...

wassalaam.

Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
(Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)

Sign*Reader View Drop Down

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Posted: 26 March 2007 at 8:52pm

nu001
786:ASA
I feel sorry that bro Sawtul and sister amah got no where with their effort to put the messenger (saw) in a perspective of the revelations.
This has been observed in the elitist Muslims who are late in their incursion into Islam by a lack of training early on in their lives.

Islam is a panoramic faith provided with way of life from the get go by the messenger(s) which was a complete package at the time of his death unlike any other religion which built dogma and rituals as they went along and gained political footholds.

It is also obvious that you ignore to acknowledge credit to the Prophet(saw) for his services to Allah on the ummah's behalf.

You relind me of Elijah Muhammad's MO of knowing the Quraan without any comprehending the background of each revelations and creating a deviant cult of his own. His main lieutenant Malcolm X discovered the truth and followed the proper sunnah faith but ended up paying the price with his life for telling the errors of his mentor's ways of interpreting Quraan.

Let's see when Allah states in the following signs: What areas are being covered !!!

Al -Ahzab
33:21 Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.

a. his beautiful Sunnah
b. Hope for grace of Alllah on day of judgment
c. the prayer /how to

33:56 Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect

Where do you find the details of his beautiful pattern and
send salutations in salaat if don' t check the procedures in the early Imam's say Abu Hanifa (R) Born 80/699-150/767-via his recording from Hadith

for his school of jurisprudence which has continued since.
If your concern is about Bukhari that he came on the scene too late!

There is not much description about the Prophet (saw)in Quran,Where do you go--to the orientalists?

Al-Imran 3:31 Say Oh Prophet : "If ye do love Allah, follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (full of grace)."

Here The Prophet(saw) is being instructed by God to proclaim the to the believers to follow HIM if they want to be loved by Allah.

If you are bereft of the knowledge of his seerah how can you even get in that ball park much less following him?
Are you with me so far?

His is the most quoted, and scrutinized seerah there is of any world leader cuz his life was an open book for the believers to follow. They passed on the details to coming generations as a trust of their preferred love story. They will love to emulate his ways as much as humanly possible.
I have read about a great saint that he would not eat a certain fruit cuz he could not find in sunnah that how did the Prophet(saw) ate that particular item.
Allah's grace is not possible till one loves the ways of Muhammad(sa) in the light of the quoted signs.

The companions were his lovers cuz he came back after ascension to suffer at the hands of the idolaters in order to complete the religion of his patriarch Abraham (as) and establish which nobody could achieve in span of millenniums the numerous prophets of Israelites notwithstanding.

It is OK if the some hadith were transmitted in poor form or recorded as such and tell you what they are not the basis of Islamic creed anyways.

The Quraan is always there as GO NOGO gaging for quality purposes(Furqan) as long as you are knowledgeable and granted wisdom and not creating trouble (fitnah).

It seems you are trying to self medicate yourself cuz the access to the pharmacy is available. There are some ailments you may self medicate by reading the labels and get your health back, but you know it is always smart to ask the pharmacist. You know self medication is bad idea when life threatening condition prevails.
It also indicates a condition of irresponsibility and a state where the people take short cuts to make up for the missed opportunities in their devolutionary processes. Some Muslims or pseudo Muslims are prone to this kind of approach in their futile attempt to mollify their colonial states. First they knock at the seerah then they will go to modify the Quraan itself, then what next only Allah knows.
The Kharjites of the Ali/Muaviyah conflict time frame also were the proponents of the Quraan only to be the arbiter of disputes and then guess what they created in the ummah? a split that has no chance of healing in foreseeable future.
It is part of humanity, one doesn't need to get bent out of shape and throw the baby with bath water.

How do you develop the jurisprudence if you don't have the body of hadith available to set up and adjudicate in the court system, unless you are proponent of status quo of colonial legal system for Muslims.

So in conclusion if there will be a need of the Islamic jurisprudence there will be demand to establish Islamic schools and universities the scholars and student will debate and sort out which hadith are Prophet's and which are not! And are they even applicable to the current life & times.

Muslims need to develop big shoulders first to carry this responsibility. The most educated Muslims are helping the colonialist at the moment being in diaspora like the Jews were.
It is matter of law and order; the muslims are just trying or look like to free themselves of the colonialism and the next step has to be rule of the law and enforcement of the laws without fear or favor.

More later may be

Edited by Sign*Reader

Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.

nu001

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Posted: 14 March 2007 at 3:48pm

Sawtul Khilafah wrote:

n001, you have not yet been able to refute any of the points that I have made and could not even explain the meaning of verse 82 of Surah Naml.

I really dont understand why youre still arguing here. You even continued to mistranslate some verses even after I showed you the correct translation.

Let me ask another question. Which of the Authentic/Sahih narrations in Hadith books do you think contradict the Qur'an ? Instead of just repeating yourself please just show a few clear examples instead of repeatedly misquoting the Qur'an.

As for why we believe in the sayings of the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) it is because the Qur'an tells us to obey Allah And the Messenger, and because we know that the Prophet (pbuh) understood the Qur'an better than we do especially as he was taught by Gabriel/Jibrail and because he was chosen by Allah.

And you should also know that the same people who narrated and compiled the Qur'an also narrated the Hadith which were written down just one generation after by their students. And yes the Hadith are not as important and perfect as the Qur'an and any Hadith that truely contradicts the Qur'an is either abrogated or is a fabrication.

Allah's Messenger (pbuh) said: Very soon a tradition of mine will be related to a person lying on his couch who will say : "The book of Allah, Mighty and Glorious, is enough between you and us. Whatever we find in it as Halal we accept it as Halal and whatever we find in it as Haram we take it as Haram. Behold, whatever Allah's Messenger (pbuh) has declared as Haram is just like that which Allah has declared Haram. (Sunan ibn Majah volume 1)

Sawatul

Welcome. Please don't talk in general terms, point out where I have used wrong translation, along with your reference of translation. None of these are my translation. You can consult Yusuf Ali, Pickthal, Muhsin khan, Shakir etc or any translator you can reffer to. If we don't agree we can go back to Arabic for the real meaning.

Come on man; I replied you on your 82 verse, its not relevant here; please don't quote a verse number and tell me to explain it; you better explain how that supports hadith or authenticates hadith or relates to what you want to say; If I disagree i will put my refference and explanation for that, got it dear? I do the same once I quote.

How are you sure that the sentense you quoted as hadith is said by prophet? I am not going into the discussion of it being right/wrong now, first of all can you please tell me the entire link from; who heard it from prophet first and finally who told to the writer?

I possibly dont need to prove that Quran is Allah's word. You prove me that Hadith is prophets word and How do you deal with what Allah has said so clearly in Quran on Hadith and Sunnah? If you can't prove it to be wrong, can there be a discussion after Allah's word?

Salam

Edited by nu001

"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"

Sawtul Khilafah View Drop Down

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Posted: 14 March 2007 at 2:36pm

n001, you have not yet been able to refute any of the points that I have made and could not even explain the meaning of verse 82 of Surah Naml.

I really dont understand why youre still arguing here. You even continued to mistranslate some verses even after I showed you the correct translation.

Allah's Messenger (pbuh) said: Very soon a tradition of mine will be related to a person lying on his couch who will say : "The book of Allah, Mighty and Glorious, is enough between you and us. Whatever we find in it as Halal we accept it as Halal and whatever we find in it as Haram we take it as Haram." Behold, whatever Allah's Messenger (pbuh) has declared as Haram is just like that which Allah has declared Haram. (Sunan ibn Majah volume 1)

Edited by Sawtul Khilafah

nu001

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Posted: 14 March 2007 at 12:04pm

amah wrote:

Bismillahirrahmanirraheem

Assalaamualaikum

nu001, your understanding of the Quran is incorrect.

There is no scope of my different understanding of Quran; While Allah says these verses are perfect, clear, easy to understand, in details etc etc do you think that Allah used words in Quran tentatively? He used perfect and clear words. There is no scope of another meaning. Can you explain what do those ayahs mean then?

"Shall I seek other than Allah as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 6:114

"Follow what is revealed to you from your Lord (Qura�n)." 33:2

"The word of your Lord is complete in truth and justice" 6:115

"We have made it (the Qura�n) easy to understand and in your own tongue (language) may you take heed.� 44:58

"A.L.R. This is a book whose verses have been perfected" 11:1

There are many more places where similar things are told by Allah.

amah wrote:

When Aisha radiallahu anha was asked about the character of the prophet sallallahu alayhi wasallam, she said his character was the quran.

So? We should follow Quran !! Where from Hadith comes in? If he followed Quran, why cant we try following Quran? Allah also says that in Quran; Isn�t it better to follow Allah's words than some one writing Hadith and telling that prophet said this, then we have to believe the hadith writers blindly, isn�t it? But following the Quran blindly is the safest option as prophet followed Quran.

amah wrote:

Why does Allah stress upon obeying the Prophet so much (I dont need to repeat the verses). Allah said obey the messenger not obey the message.

Allah uses perfect words; Obey the messenger indicates message; If it meant mohammad, then don't you think that the number of marriage he had; becomes obligatory for all of us? After all 'follow' is a command. isnt it?

amah wrote:

If you were to disbelieve in hadith, how would you know about the tafsir of the quran? Do you know when surahs were revealed, under what cicumstances, etc?

I have shown you before that these are not needed to understand Quran. Quran is indetail. These can only confuse you. It is neither �must know� nor �should know� for understanding Quran.

amah wrote:

Kindly tell us the meaning of this ayah and for who was it revealed? "Allaah forbids you from it [slander] and warns you not to repeat the like of it forever, if you are believers." [al-Noor 24:17]"

I replied it before; it's a law and lesson for whole of mankind. Whatever is the occassion.

amah wrote:

How do you exactly make salah ? No takbeer? no tashahhud? what do you read in qiyaam etc? What do you do regarding hajj?

Everything is there perfectly in Quran, if you ever wanted to know. I will insha Allah provide the complete, Salat related information/instruction from the Quran.

amah wrote:

Most importantly, if you do not believe in the words of the Prophet or the narrations of the sahabas, how do you believe in the fact that Quran came through them? It is the same prophet who memorised the quran, same sahabas who memorised the quran. You trust them to pass on the quran to us, but reject the fact that they can transmit hadith? Just because the Quran says it is the truth you believe it? what proof do you have besides that?

I definitely believe in the words of prophet; he brought us the Quran from Allah. That is proven to be perfectly from Allah; and to be divine. It's the prophet who told us that it is from Allah.

I am only not believing the hadith writers and scholars who wrote manythings out of rivalry between them and got us divided in the process. They have not proven that these were prophets words, many of which are contradictory to Quran.

amah wrote:

Do you have any idea, how much effort has been put into hearing and preserving the hadith? Just because some people like Abdullah Chakralwi and the likes do not accept hadith, does not mean we must just throw away these gems from the prophet.

Who told you about there efforts? The person who has done it, he himself had to tell what all they have done to prove their worth. What ever hard work they have done; they could neither reach the prophet nor the sahabas and their 8-10 generations; to verify, whom the people were referring in hadith. Could they? Isnt it like Chinese whispers? Do you want to tell me that Hadith words are perfect?

"They have set up their religious leaders and scholars as lords; instead of God....." 9:31

Finally, do you think it is only aimed at the christians, jews and all those who came before prophet Muhammad? Is it not applicable for the Muslims as well?

We should not depend on religious leaders and scholar 100% and neither believe evrything blindly without prove. There are many with malicious intentions.

"Never would a human being whom GOD blessed with the scripture and prophethood say to the people, "Idolize me beside GOD." Instead, (he would say), "Devote yourselves absolutely to your Lord alone," according to the scripture you preach and the teachings you learn." 3:79

Edited by nu001

"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"

nu001

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Posted: 14 March 2007 at 10:49am

amah wrote:

Bismillahirrahmanirraheem

Assalaamualaikum

nu001, ......................................

"But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you [Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.� [al-Nisaa� 4:65]

�. . . (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger . . .� [al-Nisaa� 4:59]

Brother Amah

I am sure you will agree with me that Allah does not believe in coincidence. What ever he says and what ever he does, He exactly knows past, present and future of it. Just see some of the previous verses before He says verse 4:59:

04.048 Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.

004.049 Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who claim sanctity for themselves? Nay-but Allah Doth sanctify whom He pleaseth. But never will they fail to receive justice in the least little thing.

004.050 Behold! How they invent a lie against Allah! but that by

itself is a manifest sin

If you have read it, iam sure that you understand the meaning of your verses. As the prophet was physically present amongst the people so it is mentioned him and Allah. How do you get him as your judge once he is dead? If you are trying to reach to a dead soul, you are trying to make him divine not human thus partnering with Allah.

As he was the judge during his life time, so there after many others will be judge to resolve disputes amongst people; Prophet did it with Allahs Laws, same will be done [and are possibly being done in some places] by Allahs laws by others. Did prophet have a different set of laws than Allah?

I would love to go to the beloved prophet for justice than any other men we are going today for justice on disputes; because he would be sticking to the Quran better than anyone else there after.

"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"