Why a corrupt Bible is a problem for Islam

Apollos said =

You have employed a lot of non sequiturs in your statements but I offer two responses to your post:

1.      It is obvious that you do not know what Christians believe about Jesus� ontology or else you would have known that Jesus having a human nature, praying to God, etc. is part of what we believe. When you � or someone who told you about Christians � mischaracterizes our beliefs like this, it doesn�t do anyone any good. Before you challenge someone else to take an �honest look� at the Quran, you might want to take an honest look at the Bible.

   2. You assume that I have never read the Quran with an open mind. In fact I did this over thirty years ago and reached the opposite conclusion than you have. I won�t offend you by criticizing it but I at least give it the benefit of the doubt that there may be ways a believer of the Quran could reconcile the many inconsistencies. You obviously don�t do this with the Bible. And when you recommend not paying attention to the words of men, how is it that you base your service to God on � not the Quran but other writings by men, who say that you should believe and do what they say Mohammed said. Even if Mohammed was a prophet, it does not follow that the Hadith should be followed. So you do in fact want me to pay attention to what men say � beyond the Quran.

      Apollos

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SWORDOFALLAH RESPONDED:

 

1st off APOLLOS

I USED NO non sequiturs IN MY REPLY TO YOU.

AND THE FACT THAT YOU SAY I DID IS A SHIELD TO IGNORE ANYTHING I HAVE TO SAY !

I NOTICED YOU POINTED OUT NOTHING SPECIFIC AT ALL THOUGH. !

2ND YOU USED THE WORD (EMPLOY) THERE,S NO WAGE BEING PAID HERE,

A MUCH BETTER WORD WOULD HAVE BEEN THE WORD IMPLEMENTED

NEXT YOU SAID IT,S OBVIOUS I DONT KNOW WHAT CHRISTIANS BELEIVE, THAT MY FRIEND WASNT THE SUBJECT MATTER !

AND IT,S AN IGNORANT STATEMENT SO QUICKLY IN THE DISCUSSION. PARDON ME FOR BEING BLUNT,

I SAID WHEN JESUS WENT INTO THE DESERT TO PRAY AND WAS TEMPTED BY THE DEVIL WHO DID HE PRAY TO HIMSELF ?

THE POINT THAT BY PASSED YOU LIKE A ROCKET WAS HOW CAN JESUS BE GOD WHEN HE,S PRAYING TO HIM ?????

AND THAT WAS ASKING YOU A QUESTION !

NOT~MISCHARECTERIZING YOUR BELIEFS AS YOU BOLDLY STATED.

AND FOR YOUR INFO I HAVE ALREADY READ THE BIBLE,

AND FOR YOU TO TELL ME TO READ THE BIBLE 1ST BEFORE ME ASKING YOU TO READ THE QURAN IS YOUR PEROGATIVE.

HOWEVER I KNOW YOU DIDNT READ THE QURAN = I KNOW THIS !

YOU LOVE CHANGING SUBJECT MATTER DONT YOU I TOLD YOU TO TRY AND READ THE QURAN.

THEN YOU SAID I WANT YOU TO READ THE HADITH WHICH ONE DID I MENTION TO YOU I WONDER WAS IT THE SUNNI OR SHIA
HHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ????????

I WOULD NOT DESCRIBE TOOLS OF UNDERSTANDING THAT COMPLIMENT THE QURAN TO SOMEONE AT YOUR APTITUDE LEVEL.

IT WOULD BE LIKE HANDING A DICTIONARY TO SOMEONE WHO DIDNT KNOW THERE A B C ,s

AMAZING HOW A TONGUE IS LIKE A TWO EDGED SWORD ISNT IT .

YOU CANT DAZZLE ME WITH BRILLIANCE OR BAFFLE ME WITH BOLOGNA , ~~~~~~ REMEMBER THAT ABOUT ME, !!

AND YOU CANT STICK TO THE SUBJECT MATTER BECAUSE YOUR WORDS ARE FORMED ON RYTHMIC INFERENCES BASED ON YOUR ASSUMPTIONS & PSYCHIC ABILITY.

ENGLISH IS MY LANGUAGE,

AND YOU ARE OUTCLASSED TRYING TO GET INTO THE RING WITH ME BUT BY ALL MEANS ANYTIME. !

NEW FROM APOLLOS:

SOA,

 

I and other followers of Jesus have addressed your �questions� many times. To save you time I will summarize here.

 

It is you who have made what Christians believe the subject matter by creating a straw man. You stated that Jesus prayed to God, as if this is at odds with what Christians believe. You have further clarified your assertion above with the argument that Jesus would be praying to himself � something that is nonsensical. If Christians believed that God had only one center of consciousness, your objection would have merit. Of course we don�t believe this so your objection is irrelevant. (If the one God has more than one center of consciousness, one of those centers of consciousness can communicate with the other. That is what we believe. It doesn�t matter if you understand or accept this belief � it is our belief and since you have tried to characterize what we believe differently I am right in saying you don�t know what Christians believe).

 

Imagine your reaction if I said: Muslims commit shirk by attempting to partner Mohammed with God. If I impose my view on your statements (as you have done with Christian statements) I would look at your central belief statement and find it blasphemous. (�There is no God but Allah and that Mohammad is His Messenger.�) Jews and Christians so venerate the name and place of God that we would never combine the name of a mere man with the all powerful and holy God. The only time the Bible makes a similar creedal statement is when that human is the Messiah and of course we do not believe the Messiah is a mere human. But I realize that Muslims don�t share this view so it would be a mischaracterization of what Muslims believe to assert this claim. The central Muslim creed is blasphemous to me but I should not accuse Muslims of intentionally blaspheming God.

 

Since you know that I have never read the Quran, and I know I have, one of us is delusional. I don�t see any point in trying to have a dialogue with a delusional person, do you?

 

BTW � I am sure it is as you say - that I am out of your league against your mental skills and I am sure you are an expert with English, so I am going to run away scared. You might want to tune that English up though as I see you repeatedly start sentences with �And�, put a period before exclamation marks, etc. I�m told these are grammatical mistakes.

 

Apollos

Edited by Apollos - 26 March 2010 at 5:43pm

IP,

 

Arguing for argument sake may be what you have been doing but not I. As I stated � �I had thought you might have some insights as to how a rational Muslim viewed the Quran and how the English translation was to blame for it�s apparent content�. That is why I pressed you for answers along a long and tedious trail of words. Had I known you thought as I now see you do, I would not have wasted the time. Obviously you thought I already knew what you were about so you considered it all a fun sport of jousting.

 

I will leave you with this final post � not in hopes that you will suddenly turn yourself into an objective thinker or because I want to argue. I simply want to clarify for others what you have tried to obscure. This non-imitation claim is supposed to be the foundation of your belief so I think it worth one last post.

 

I looked up the passages you refer to concerning the Quran not being able to be imitated and that is what my previous comments referred to. I quote them below and repeat what I said before in greater detail.

Say: "If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another." [Qur'an 17:88]

And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'an) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful. [Qur'an 2:23]

And this Qur'an is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allah (Lord of the heavens and the earth), but it is a confirmation of (the revelation) which was before it [i.e. the Taurat (Torah), and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.], and a full explanation of the Book (i.e. laws and orders, etc, decreed for mankind) - wherein there is no doubt from the the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns,and all that exists).

Or do they say: "He (Muhammad^(P)) has forged it?" Say: "Bring then a surah (chapter) like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allah, if you are truthful!" [Qur'an 10:37-38]

Or they say, "He (Prophet Muhammad^(P)) forged it (the Qur'an)." Say: "Bring you then ten forged surah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than Allah (to your help), if you speak the truth!" [Qur'an 11:13]

Or do they say: "He (Muhammad^(P)) has forged it (this Qur'an)?" Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recital like unto it (the Qur'an) if they are truthful. [Qur'an 52:33-34]

Does it say in the above passages who would be the one(s) to determine if the attempted imitation was valid or not? No � except for maybe the reference to �witnesses�. So this means that the statements are either rhetorical or the non-Muslims who are challenged to produce the imitation are welcome to bring their own witnesses as to whether the imitation is valid or not. Since the intention is for non-Muslims to be persuaded by the outcome of such an attempt, the latter possibility is quite in keeping with this intention. These two possibilities are the only options. For you to assert that this is not just rhetoric but a falsifiable challenge that the Quran lays down and then further interject that Muslims of any sort are to be the judges of whether the deed is successful is completely indefensible. The bedrock of your faith is not only subjective, it is arbitrary and out of touch with what the Quran actually states.

 

That is what I stated previously in shorthand. (Thinking you had studied these passages better). Answer it however you like. I don�t expect you to provide objective reasons for this belief or any other one you hold. Even if the Quran did state that its literary inimitability as assessed by Muslim scholars was the earmark of divinity, I would still reject that claim as preposterous.

 

Apollos

you said =

You have employed a lot of non sequiturs in your statements but I offer two responses to your post:



1.      It is obvious that you do not know what Christians believe about Jesus� ontology or else you would have known that Jesus having a human nature, praying to God, etc. is part of what we believe. When you � or someone who told you about Christians � mischaracterizes our beliefs like this, it doesn�t do anyone any good. Before you challenge someone else to take an �honest look� at the Quran, you might want to take an honest look at the Bible.

   2. You assume that I have never read the Quran with an open mind. In fact I did this over thirty years ago and reached the opposite conclusion than you have. I won�t offend you by criticizing it but I at least give it the benefit of the doubt that there may be ways a believer of the Quran could reconcile the many inconsistencies. You obviously don�t do this with the Bible. And when you recommend not paying attention to the words of men, how is it that you base your service to God on � not the Quran but other writings by men, who say that you should believe and do what they say Mohammed said. Even if Mohammed was a prophet, it does not follow that the Hadith should be followed. So you do in fact want me to pay attention to what men say � beyond the Quran.

      Apollos

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1st off APOLLOS

I USED NO non sequiturs IN MY REPLY TO YOU.

AND THE FACT THAT YOU SAY I DID IS A SHIELD TO IGNORE ANYTHING I HAVE TO SAY !

I NOTICED YOU POINTED OUT NOTHING SPECIFIC AT ALL THOUGH. !

2ND YOU USED THE WORD (EMPLOY) THERE,S NO WAGE BEING PAID HERE,

A MUCH BETTER WORD WOULD HAVE BEEN THE WORD IMPLEMENTED

NEXT YOU SAID IT,S OBVIOUS I DONT KNOW WHAT CHRISTIANS BELEIVE, THAT MY FRIEND WASNT THE SUBJECT MATTER !

AND IT,S AN IGNORANT STATEMENT SO QUICKLY IN THE DISCUSSION. PARDON ME FOR BEING BLUNT,

I SAID WHEN JESUS WENT INTO THE DESERT TO PRAY AND WAS TEMPTED BY THE DEVIL WHO DID HE PRAY TO HIMSELF ?

THE POINT THAT BY PASSED YOU LIKE A ROCKET WAS HOW CAN JESUS BE GOD WHEN HE,S PRAYING TO HIM ?????

AND THAT WAS ASKING YOU A QUESTION !

NOT~MISCHARECTERIZING YOUR BELIEFS AS YOU BOLDLY STATED.

AND FOR YOUR INFO I HAVE ALREADY READ THE BIBLE,

AND FOR YOU TO TELL ME TO READ THE BIBLE 1ST BEFORE ME ASKING YOU TO READ THE QURAN IS YOUR PEROGATIVE.

HOWEVER I KNOW YOU DIDNT READ THE QURAN = I KNOW THIS !

YOU LOVE CHANGING SUBJECT MATTER DONT YOU I TOLD YOU TO TRY AND READ THE QURAN.

THEN YOU SAID I WANT YOU TO READ THE HADITH WHICH ONE DID I MENTION TO YOU I WONDER WAS IT THE SUNNI OR SHIA
HHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ????????

I WOULD NOT DESCRIBE TOOLS OF UNDERSTANDING THAT COMPLIMENT THE QURAN TO SOMEONE AT YOUR APTITUDE LEVEL.

IT WOULD BE LIKE HANDING A DICTIONARY TO SOMEONE WHO DIDNT KNOW THERE A B C ,s

AMAZING HOW A TONGUE IS LIKE A TWO EDGED SWORD ISNT IT .

YOU CANT DAZZLE ME WITH BRILLIANCE OR BAFFLE ME WITH BOLOGNA , ~~~~~~ REMEMBER THAT ABOUT ME, !!

AND YOU CANT STICK TO THE SUBJECT MATTER BECAUSE YOUR WORDS ARE FORMED ON RYTHMIC INFERENCES BASED ON YOUR ASSUMPTIONS & PSYCHIC ABILITY.

ENGLISH IS MY LANGUAGE,

AND YOU ARE OUTCLASSED TRYING TO GET INTO THE RING WITH ME BUT BY ALL MEANS ANYTIME. !

Apollos wrote: IP,   I am not interested in debating or arguing for the sake of arguing. In fact, my faith instructs me to avoid such. That is why I keep trying to see if there is something we agree on or at least to find the fundamentals we don�t agree on. If need be � and I think we may be there � we should agree to disagree.   To the question I posed, you did provide an answer � but you quickly qualified it. If you care to explain find. If you don�t that is fine too. The part that puzzles me is � you state that neither of our faiths is more valid than the other. This is in keeping with your numerous statements that the supernatural can not be proven objectively, that faith is inherently subjectively, etc. But then you say there are aspects of both faiths which cannot be considered simply matters of faith, and on this basis you deem Islam as valid and Christianity as not. If I didn�t know better I would think that you were referring to aspects that are objective or can been justified objectively. I don�t think that is what you mean for you have argued so passionately against such things but I can�t don�t what else you could mean. If you are referring to subjective things like how Islam resonates with you on a subjective basis, I would ask the same question as I did about faith. (Is one of our subjective likes and dislikes more valid than the other?). I think you understand my worldview and I understand you reject it. I am really trying to understand your worldview as I don�t know if I reject it or agree with it.     Apollos

Now, you are just resorting to theatrics!  If you didn't want to "argue for the sake of arguing" as you put it, which is essentially what we have been doing since August 2009, why didn't you stop this discussion back then?  You are not making any sense anymore. 

Agree to disagree?  Sure, I agree to that. 

Regarding my answer, I don't think I can be anymore clearer.  What I said regarding how Islam is more valid than Christianity is how I feel and I believe that our discussion proved that.  I don't want to repeat what I wrote in the main response, but what the hell.  For example, while the supernatural claims of both the Bible and the Quran cannot be objectively provable (the resurrection of Jesus as told in the NT and the miraculous nature of Jesus' final days as told in the Quran), the claims of divine origin of those books can be objectively analyzed.  The Bible provides no evidence that it is from God and the available evidence actually shows that is not (the contradictions, the historical errors etc.).  On the other hand, the Quran provides evidence that it is from God and even challenges those who do not believe to imitate it.  You failed to refute this and I actually showed examples of how the Quran is inimitable.  Therefore, I conclude that the Quran proves it is from God and the Bible does not.  It cannot be any clearer.