Christians and Jews Will receive a Double Reward

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 786SalamKhan wrote:

Wa Alaikum,

Wa alaikum salaam.

 TG12345 wrote:

All of the passages in Muwatta I looked at were about Muhammad saying something. They consisted of his words, not actions. I think I am really misunderstanding something here, are you saying that the hadiths are a record of Muhammad's words and the Sunnah a record of his actions? Can you provide me some examples then of the Sunnah?

Does the Quran say anything about the hadiths? If someone rejects the hadiths completely, can they still be saved as a Muslim or are they then non-Muslims? Thanks.

 786SalamKhan wrote:

Examples of the Sunnah would be the Five Pillars, keeping of beard, covering of women etc.
An average muslim would not really have time to read all hadith, so law would usually be taught to him and he would usually have time to read the Quran and practice the five pillars.

And where are the 5 pillars mentioned?...

 TG12345 wrote:

What if I told you I got it from God?

 786SalamKhan wrote:

Did Muhammad(SAW) claim he got it from G-d?

Are you saying that his teachings are not from God? I would actually agree with you if you did, but somehow doubt that to be the case. 

 TG12345 wrote:

No problems. Which leads us back to the passage we are looking for. What did Muhammad mean when he said that a Muslim eats with one intestine and a non-Muslim with seven?

 786SalamKhan wrote:

If I'm not mistaken was Muhammad(SAW) not referring to that very incident where the non-muslim ate more than them? I don't remember the hadith you posted.

Here they are:

Book 49, Number 49.6.9:       Yahya
 related to me from Malik from Abu'z-Zinad from al-Araj that Abu Hurayra
 said, "The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace,
 said, 'The muslim eats in one intestine, and the kafir eats in seven!' " 

Book 49, Number 49.6.10:      
 Yahya
 related to me from Malik from Suhayl ibn Abi Salih from his father from
 Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant 
him peace, gave hospitality to a kafir guest. The Messenger of Allah, 
may Allah bless him and grant him peace, ordered a sheep to be brought 
for him and it was milked. He drank its milk. Then another came, and he 
drank it. Then another came and he drank it until he had drunk the milk 
of seven sheep. In the morning he became muslim, and the Messenger of 
Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, ordered a sheep for him.
 It was milked and he drank its milk. Then he ordered another for him 
and he could not finish it. The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him 
and grant him peace, said, "The mumin drinks in one intestine, and the 
kafir drinks in seven intestines." 

http://malikmuwatta.blogspot.ca/2008/03/book-49-description-of-prophet-may.html

 TG12345 wrote:

Jesus being the Son of God does not conflict with Him being God and that
 does not conflict with Him being man. As the New Testament points out, 
Jesus was both God and man... the Word of God made flesh.

If you 
believe that parts of the Bible are parts of God's word and his prophets
 are others are not, then obviously you must believe it is corrupted.

 786SalamKhan wrote:

So you believe God supposedly gave birth to himself through a virgin but he came out human? That doesn't make sense.

Why not? He chose to make Himself incarnate in the world, and this is how He chose to do it.

 786SalamKhan wrote:

  Wouldn't corrupted imply that they were aware they were "corrupting" it.
Al-Bukhari reported that Ibn �Abbas said that the Ayah means they alter and
  add although none among Allah�s creation CAN REMOVE THE WORDS OF ALLAH FROM HIS
  BOOKS, THEY ALTER AND DISTORT THEIR APPARENT MEANINGS. Wahb bin Munabbih said, "The
  Tawrah and Injil REMAIN AS ALLAH REVEALED THEM, AND NO LETTER IN THEM WAS REMOVED.
  However, the people misguide others by addition and false interpretation, relying on books
  that they wrote themselves." 
Nothing was removed but additions(such as the crucifixion account added to the written gospels) were made and meanings were changed.
If nothing was removed, then where is Muhammad mentioned in the Bible, Old Testament or New Testament?

 TG12345 wrote:

I have a NIV Bible at home, as well as an NIV. When I used to be a Catholic Christian, I would read the NRSV. The differences are so minor in most cases one can barely notice them. Theologically, they make no real difference.

 786SalamKhan wrote:

You have a NIV Bible as well as an NIV? What?

Oops I meant NIV and ESV.  

 TG12345 wrote:

I am reading through the links you posted in your last reply, I have to admit I haven't seen the one you are referring to yet. 

Where do you think Muhammad is mentioned in the Torah or Prophets? 

Where do you think he is mentioned in the Gospels or New Testament? I am glad you realize He is not the Comforter. 

 786SalamKhan wrote:

  The hadith implies Prophets as in Isaiah 42(?):

		Narrated Ata bin Yasar:

		I met Abdullah bin 'Amr bin Al-'As and asked him, "Tell me about the 
description of Allah's Apostle which is mentioned in Torah (i.e. Old 
Testament). He replied, 'Yes. By Allah, he is described in Torah with 
some of the qualities attributed to him in the Quran such as: "O Prophet
 ! We have sent you as a witness  and a giver of glad tidings, and a 
warner (Qur'an 48:8) and guardian of the Ummiyyeen. You are My Servant 
and My  by CouponDropDown">messenger
 (i.e. Apostle). I have named you "Al-Mutawakkil" (who depends upon 
Allah). You are neither discourteous, harsh nor a noise-maker in the 
markets And you do not do evil to those who do evil to you, but you deal
 with them with forgiveness and kindness. Allah will not let him (the 
Prophet) die till he makes straight the crooked people by making them 
say: "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah," with which will be
 opened blind eyes and deaf ears and enveloped hearts."

		[Bukhari Kitaab al-Buyu' (Book of Sales and Trade) Chapter 50 (The dislike of raising voices in the market)]
Read my links for more info on this.
Please show me which part of Isaiah 42 you believe prophesies of Muhammad.

 786SalamKhan wrote:

  The only accounts in the New Testament for Jesus' life are the Gospels are they not? So the Prophecy of Muhammad would be in the Gospel.
If that is the case, where is he prophesied in the Gospels?

 TG12345 wrote:

I asked because previously you wrote that there is a Shia Quran. So you do not believe this to be the case?

 786SalamKhan wrote:

  I do not know much about Shia Islam.

Then why did you say there is a Shia Quran?

 TG12345 wrote:

Yet if the Gospel = New Testament, it clearly states that Jesus was 
crucified. Can you please show me the hadith you are referring to? I 
guess I haven't gotten to it yet.
If you believe that the Bible is not corrupted, then the Quran and the 
Bible conflict since the Bible does state clearly that Jesus was 
crucified. Interestingly, the authors of "unchanging word" also believe 
He was crucified, though not that He is God.

 786SalamKhan wrote:

  There are different books in the New Testament, not just the Gospels.

Yes, that is true. Do you believe all the New Testament is the Injil and from God as the authors of "unchanging word" do, or just the Gospels?

 786SalamKhan wrote:

Ibn Abbas
 said, "Just before Allah raised Jesus to the Heavens, Jesus went to his
 disciples, who were twelve inside the house. When he arrived, his hair 
was dripping with water (as if he had just had a bath) and he said, 
'There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after 
you had believed in me.' He then asked, 'Who among you will volunteer 
for his appearance to be transformed into mine, and be killed in my 
place. Whoever volunteers for that, he will be with me (in Paradise).'
 One of the youngest ones among them volunteered, but Jesus asked him to
 sit down. Jesus asked again for a volunteer, and the same young man 
volunteered and Jesus asked him to sit down again. Then the young man 
volunteered a third time and Jesus said, 'You will be that man,' and the
 resemblance of Jesus was cast over that man while Jesus ascended to 
Heaven from a hole in the roof of the house. When the Jews came looking 
for Jesus, they found that young man and crucified him. Some of Jesus' 
followers disbelieved in him twelve times after they had believed in 
him. They then divided into three groups. One group, the Jacobites, said, 'Allah remained with us as long as He willed and then ascended to Heaven.' Another group, the Nestorians,
 said, 'The son of Allah was with us as long as he willed and Allah took
 him to Heaven.' Another group, the Muslims, said, 'The servant and 
Messenger of Allah remained with us as long as Allah willed, and Allah 
then took him to Him.' The two disbelieving groups cooperated against 
the Muslim group and they killed them. Ever since that happened, Islam 
was then veiled until Allah sent Muhammad."

I don't know how authentic this 

I do not know how authentic this is either, but for the sake of Ibn Abbas' credibility I hope he didn't actually state this. Even if we disregard the claim that Jesus was not crucified and that someone offered to take his place (which I do not believe of course), the claim that there were the mentioned three groups of disciples and that two of the groups killed the third group is not only offensive to the disciples but false... and I will show you why.

The Nestorians were a Christian sect that came in existence in the 5th century, started by a bishop called Nestorius.
http://www.everyculture.com/Africa-Middle-East/Nestorians-History-and-Cultural-Relations.html

The Jacobites came into existence in the 4th century.
http://www.everyculture.com/Africa-Middle-East/Jacobites-History-and-Cultural-Relations.html

As you and I know, Jesus lived on earth in the first century.

Can you please provide the source from where you got the commentary? Thanks.

 786SalamKhan wrote:

   Crucifixion followed by a resurrection in the Quran is still possible as it says ".....for of a surety they killed him not:-"
�Qur'an, sura 4 157 Could mean they did not kill him for good or definite as Jews and other non believers think they did.

Of course Jesus was not killed "for good". He rose from the dead! 

Praise God!

The verse you cited says though very clearly that Muslims believe Jesus was not only not killed, but also not crucified.

4:157

And because of their saying: We 
slew the Messiah, Jesus son of  Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him 
not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who 
disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge 
thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

 786SalamKhan wrote:

   But in Islam whether he was killed or not is not that important but that he is alive in Heaven and there will be a Second Coming.

The fact however is that He was both crucified and died on the cross... and then He came back to life. He is alive in Heaven and there will be a second coming. On that we agree.

 TG12345 wrote:

These passages do not contradict the crucifixion. The angels would have protected Jesus from falling if He jumped, it doesn't say He would be protected from the crucifixion. 
Jesus could have called on angels to have protected Him from crucifixion.

Matthew 26:53
⁵³Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? 
Instead, He chose to suffer. He could have escaped from all this, but chose not to.

 786SalamKhan wrote:

   That contradicts Matthew 27:46:
⁴⁶About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, �Eli, Eli,c]">[c] lema sabachthani?� (which means �My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?�).
Where is the contradiction? Jesus knew it was the will of the Father that He die. 

 786SalamKhan wrote:

   Also, you believe Jesus to be God yet he's calling out to his God!?
On earth, He made Himself voluntarily inferior to the Father, as the passages I cited previously in other threads already show.

 786SalamKhan wrote:

   And in the verses where Satan tells Jesus (who you believe to be God) to worship but Jesus(who you believe to be God) says he serves and worships the Lord his God only!?
Satan called on Jesus to worship him. Jesus was both man and God, and as man worshiped the Father.

 TG12345 wrote:

Please show me some of the science claims, let's look at them together. 

 786SalamKhan wrote:

   Why? You do not think so? [/QUOTE]
Feel free to show them and let's examine them together. I believe there are some scientific truths in the Quran, as there are some in the Bible. There are also scientific truths in other religious texts of belief systems we both acknowledge to be false. 

 TG12345 wrote:

Notice that this was Jesus talking about Himself. When He returns, He will judge the world and send many people to hell.

 786SalamKhan wrote:

   Did Jesus himself say will judge to send people to either Heaven or Hell? [/QUOTE]

 786SalamKhan wrote:

    Doesn't that contradict his teaching to condemn not?

It doesn't because unlike us, Jesus is God. God has the right to condemn and judge others. We do not.

 TG12345 wrote:

This was a parable describing what will happen to those who reject God. It was not Jesus giving His disciples permission to fight their enemies.

 786SalamKhan wrote:

   Is this an actual interpretation or just your opinion?

I believe that the fact that the disciples never attacked those who were persecuting them in the early church, that Jesus rebuked Peter for cutting off the ear of one of the men who arrested Christ, that Jesus taught love for enemies and turning the other cheek as a response to violence, that on the cross He Himself prayed for His enemies... means that it is what He meant.

 786SalamKhan wrote:

   The Pope and Crusaders in the middle ages thought otherwise. But then again Suicide Bombers go against the teachings of Muhammad(PBUH) and Quran.

Exactly. Jesus never allowed the use of violence, and taught us to respond to it with love.

 786SalamKhan wrote:

   Oh and Messengers all taught that G-d alone should be worshiped but had different laws but always had the Seven Laws of Noah at least in their laws.

But would one messenger's instructions to his followers contradict the instructions of another?

 TG12345 wrote:

LOL maybe it would be best to keep it on the forum. I am engaged in a very long discussion with another Muslim friend via email (we debate, and our debates have ran into hundreds of pages on MS Word) and am not sure if I can keep up with more than one like that.

I am looking through your links, though slowly as I am also involved in other things.

What is Ilm al Kalam?

Allah Akhbar!

 786SalamKhan wrote:

   Ilm al Kalam is the "science of speech" interpreted as Attempting to gain unknowable knowledge especially through debate, it is Haram. For  example, early muslims debated whether the Quran is created or uncreated since it is G-d's word. And whether Allah speaks or has speech?

Thanks for explaining.

[QUOTE=786SalamKhan]   Only Allah knows best.

Indeed.

[QUOTE=786SalamKhan]   Allahu Akbar!

Blessed be His Name!

 Sorry for the length of time in response my friend. Looking forward to reading your answer and will respond to it when I can.

Peace in Christ.

Edited by TG12345 - 08 February 2013 at 4:20am