Category: Middle East, World Affairs Topics: Occupation Views: 4438
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Road Map to Nowhere - Because Israel Says So
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There is more than one problem with the so-called "Road Map for Peace" in the Middle East. But the greatest hurdle of them all is Israel's rejection of the plan, put forth by the United States, jointly with the rest of the so-called Middle East quartet, consisting of the US, the European Union, Russia and the United Nations.
Israel has made it clear that it has no interest in the comprehensive plan, detailing a final solution to one of the Middle East's most lingering conflicts. Clear rejection was uttered directly by Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon on Saturday, January 18, 2003, ahead of his country's general elections. In an Interview with Newsweek, Sharon claimed, "Oh, the quartet is nothing! Don't take it seriously. There is [another] plan that will work."
More recently, following a meeting with US President George Bush on March 30, 2003, Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom set new conditions before 'any implementations' of the peace plan. According to Agency France Press, Shalom said that prior to the implementations, Palestinians had to "fight terrorism". To those unaware of Israel's manipulation of the term "terrorism", Shalom was indirectly suggesting that such a plan would ultimately never be implemented.
Israel is clever, one must admit. But in a world of a much more honest media, Israel's deceptive tactics could easily be exposed. Given the fact that the Road Map has garnered a great deal of attention and has been applauded by Europe, several Arab regimes and has received praise by the American administration, and to a lesser degree by the media, Israel's blunt rejection of the plan could cause political harm. To avoid such a loss, Israel reactivated an old scenario, where it would pose conditional acceptance of the plan, with a few "minor" revisions. Israel thus revised the Road Map, this time adding many new points, practically drafting an entirely new plan.
However, to Israel's disfavor, Secretary of State Collin Powell, stressed in a recent meeting in Brussels, as did US National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, before members of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, that the Road Map will be published as is, without revisions.
Can the United States juggle both issues, publishing the Road Map without change, yet avoiding the already heated pressure on the White House (already under increasing pressure due to the Iraq war plunder), mostly by AIPAC activists, who are pushing for a letter to be signed by most Congress members to urge Bush not to pressure Israel, and to keep the status quo of the Arab Israeli conflict?
But even if the US stood its ground at this point, this steadfastness would mean nothing if the Israelis refused in the end.
For the Palestinians, approval of the plan came very early on in the game, and was, to a degree, immature.
As early as September 18, 2002, senior Palestinian official, Saeb Erekat described the "general tone" of the Road Map as "disappointing" and said it "resolved nothing".
Erekat was right. The draft, which was later made available to the public, and was published via Israeli and other media outlets around the world, addressed three stages that would start with ending "Palestinian terrorism" and would conclude with the establishment of a Palestinian state in 2005. Although the plan is phrased in a way that placed certain expectations on both Israelis and Palestinians, it continuously pressed Palestinians to initiate reform as a prerequisite for Israeli action. Palestinians are expected to end "terrorism, violence, and incitement". Israel would then, "freeze settlements". Only Palestinians are expected to implement security and political reforms, yet the right wing, racist Israel government, and the Israeli army, violently occupying Palestinian territories are to do nothing, except to withdraw, once Palestinians end their violence, to the pre-Intifada borders.
The Palestinian Authority (first with a few reservations, later without any) accepted the plan and pressed Israel to accept it as well. The plan not only failed to emphasize the need to acknowledge international law, and to address key issues, such as the right of return to Palestinian refugees, borders, water, Jerusalem, but also failed to even define the borders of the 'viable' state or provide any mechanism or guarantees to secure the implementation the plan.
Of course Israel is stressed over two points within the plan, the freezing of the settlements and the establishment of a 'viable' Palestinian state. One must recall the platform of the Israeli Likud Party in the most recent elections last January, to realize why such demands upset the entire formula that led to the coalition government in Israel: "The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities [illegal colonies in the Occupied Palestinian territories] and will prevent their uprooting .. The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan River .. Jerusalem is the eternal, undivided capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel.. The Jordan Valley and the territories that dominate it shall be under Israeli sovereignty." If you think that such a platform is hostile, then read the platforms of the National Union and the National Religious Party, both important players in Sharon's coalition.
The Palestinian-Israeli conflict is not lingering due to the lack of ambiguous peace proposals such as the Road Map, which was manufactured as a political tool to legitimize the United States' no longer trusted role in the Middle East. The conflict is not facing deadlock due to lack of Palestinian reforms (although such reforms are needed, the current reforms as only aimed at suppressing and outlawing Palestinian resistance and the Palestinian people's right to defend themselves without any expectations on the Occupying Power whose polices have claimed the lives of thousands and wounded tens of thousands in the last two years alone.) The problem continues because Israel refuses to acknowledge the most basic elements needed to resolve the conflict, the implementation of international law that call for full withdrawal from the occupied territories, the right of return to Palestinian refugees and the right of the Palestinian people to self determination.
As long as Israel continues to reject international law, continue the wholesale slaughter of the Palestinian people and its occupation of Palestinian lands, the Road Map will continue to lead to nowhere; at best, it will remain a political tool in the hands of the American policy makers, and a tool to be used by Israel and certain elements within the Palestinian Authority to marginalize, even subdue the Palestinian resistance.
Baroud is the editor-in-chief of PalestineChronicle.com and the editor of the anthology titled: 'Searching Jenin: Eyewitness Accounts of the Israeli Invasion"
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Older Comments:
ABU ANTAR FROM THE MUSLIM WORLD said:
Toby, you still haven't answered any of my questions, so I guess this argument is more or less futile. God is all powerful and all compassionate, but YOUR BIBLE illustrates God as blood-thirsty and vulnerable to errors and weeped in repentence for them. Your New Testament claims human attributes to God, like having a son, getting tired after creation and needing a rest, etc.
Christianity, in its current perverted form, is the most intolerant and incompassionate of all religions. Look at how the Christian Zionists are so bellicose and eager to provoke bloodshed in the Middle East to precipitate Armageddon so that God would send, ironically, his peace-loving "son". Christians and Jews coexisted with Muslism for centuries on the same land. But you couldn't find a single Muslim living in Europe until Christianity was demolished by the Enlightenment and the Renaissance. Just compare how Christianity spread amongst the native populations of the America (by conquest and genocide) or Africa (through a massive enslavement project) and how it spread in the most populous of Mulsim countries today, Indonesia. It was spread through contact with Muslim merchants, not wars. Christianity spread in Europe due to concessions to kings that introduced distortions and perverted the faith. The claim that Islam spread through the sword is bogus. The Muslims never imposed their religion on the conquered populations, and Christians and Jews had total freedom to practice their religion and impose their own civil laws amongst themeselves. This is something even Muslims today can't do in the US or Europe.
On a final note, yes, we believe in the same God, the God of Adam, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus Christ. Both of us believe that Jesus Christ is the coming messiah and our savior at the End of Times. The difference is that you believe in decrepit texts that have been distorted and perverted, and yet summarily refuse to read the new message with open mind and determined to prejudge it.
Christianity, in its current perverted form, is the most intolerant and incompassionate of all religions. Look at how the Christian Zionists are so bellicose and eager to provoke bloodshed in the Middle East to precipitate Armageddon so that God would send, ironically, his peace-loving "son". Christians and Jews coexisted with Muslism for centuries on the same land. But you couldn't find a single Muslim living in Europe until Christianity was demolished by the Enlightenment and the Renaissance. Just compare how Christianity spread amongst the native populations of the America (by conquest and genocide) or Africa (through a massive enslavement project) and how it spread in the most populous of Mulsim countries today, Indonesia. It was spread through contact with Muslim merchants, not wars. Christianity spread in Europe due to concessions to kings that introduced distortions and perverted the faith. The claim that Islam spread through the sword is bogus. The Muslims never imposed their religion on the conquered populations, and Christians and Jews had total freedom to practice their religion and impose their own civil laws amongst themeselves. This is something even Muslims today can't do in the US or Europe.
On a final note, yes, we believe in the same God, the God of Adam, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus Christ. Both of us believe that Jesus Christ is the coming messiah and our savior at the End of Times. The difference is that you believe in decrepit texts that have been distorted and perverted, and yet summarily refuse to read the new message with open mind and determined to prejudge it.
2003-04-15
TOBY FROM USA said:
Abu,
this is the same God you say you worship. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob also Adam, Moses, and all the ancient prophets of the bible. He was first called Jehovah by himself. You are very misinformed about the awesome power of God our creator. The Koran is a tool of the devil to cloud the minds of its readers to only partial truths. For Satan knows he doesn't have to change all of Gods word but just enough to fool mankind. And that is what He's done through Islam. Sorry but if the truth hurts it just will have to hurt. The God we serve is a very compassionate God that doesn't repent of His own personal deeds but He hurts within His heart because of the errors of His creation. You have to understand the language of the English bible compared to the Greek, Latin and Hebrew text from which it was translated. The original text always agrees with each writing. The translation into English at the time it was originally translated sometimes will confuse a heathen reader such as yourself for only by the Spirit of God are we as humans able to understand the word of God. The reader often has to refer to the original meaning of the Latin Greek and Hebrew words to fully understand what the text means. Mohammed wrote alot of good stuff but good doesn't cut it in the end. He was probably a good man with good intents for the time he lived and the conditions of the Arabs he preached to at the time for it is a fact that the Arabs fought among themselves and had married many wives. He translated and wrote what He alone determined was necessary to bring the Arab masses together. A very smart individual if I must say so. Many men use religion as a tool for bringing people together and most when in search for spiritual intervention to problems never even question the supposedly man of God or in Islams case the messenger. I hope you find your answers to your many questions but trust in Jehovah and He will lead you into all truth and wisdom. This is our last communication.
this is the same God you say you worship. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob also Adam, Moses, and all the ancient prophets of the bible. He was first called Jehovah by himself. You are very misinformed about the awesome power of God our creator. The Koran is a tool of the devil to cloud the minds of its readers to only partial truths. For Satan knows he doesn't have to change all of Gods word but just enough to fool mankind. And that is what He's done through Islam. Sorry but if the truth hurts it just will have to hurt. The God we serve is a very compassionate God that doesn't repent of His own personal deeds but He hurts within His heart because of the errors of His creation. You have to understand the language of the English bible compared to the Greek, Latin and Hebrew text from which it was translated. The original text always agrees with each writing. The translation into English at the time it was originally translated sometimes will confuse a heathen reader such as yourself for only by the Spirit of God are we as humans able to understand the word of God. The reader often has to refer to the original meaning of the Latin Greek and Hebrew words to fully understand what the text means. Mohammed wrote alot of good stuff but good doesn't cut it in the end. He was probably a good man with good intents for the time he lived and the conditions of the Arabs he preached to at the time for it is a fact that the Arabs fought among themselves and had married many wives. He translated and wrote what He alone determined was necessary to bring the Arab masses together. A very smart individual if I must say so. Many men use religion as a tool for bringing people together and most when in search for spiritual intervention to problems never even question the supposedly man of God or in Islams case the messenger. I hope you find your answers to your many questions but trust in Jehovah and He will lead you into all truth and wisdom. This is our last communication.
2003-04-14
ABU ANTAR FROM THE MUSLIM WORLD said:
Toby, most of the information you posted is irrelvant and doesn't answer any of my questions. There are facts in the Bible, and there are also many fables, lies, half-truths, and outright forgeries. The message of the Quran came to correct these distortions. ..
....
And about social rules not changing from one message to the other, you're contradicting yourself. How come Adam's sons and daughters married each other? Isn't this prohibited in Christianity yet allowed in Adam's rules?
Now answer this simple question: Is God one or not? If God is one, then all that Trinity business is ... Then Jesus Christ cannot be the son of God and God at the same time because it would be foolish to say that someone is his own son, don't you think? If God is NOT one, and Jesus Christ is another god, who happens to be also the son God, then God isn't one and he has partners in divinity. Then your religion is no longer monotheistic. It's polytheistic paganism inherited from Greek myths.
Furthermore, the Bible is full of contradictions. It claims that God is vulnerable to errors and misjudgements, and at times God "cried" in repentance for his errors.
I ask you, as a rational, and hopefully educated, human being: Do you really think this "creature" is worthy of being considered God and respected? I personally have no respect and trust in a "god" that commits mistakes and weeps in repentance after that. And I personally have no respect whatsoever for a racist "god" that holds me accountable for a sin that my grand^1000 ancestor committed. This is unjust and foolish.
....
And about social rules not changing from one message to the other, you're contradicting yourself. How come Adam's sons and daughters married each other? Isn't this prohibited in Christianity yet allowed in Adam's rules?
Now answer this simple question: Is God one or not? If God is one, then all that Trinity business is ... Then Jesus Christ cannot be the son of God and God at the same time because it would be foolish to say that someone is his own son, don't you think? If God is NOT one, and Jesus Christ is another god, who happens to be also the son God, then God isn't one and he has partners in divinity. Then your religion is no longer monotheistic. It's polytheistic paganism inherited from Greek myths.
Furthermore, the Bible is full of contradictions. It claims that God is vulnerable to errors and misjudgements, and at times God "cried" in repentance for his errors.
I ask you, as a rational, and hopefully educated, human being: Do you really think this "creature" is worthy of being considered God and respected? I personally have no respect and trust in a "god" that commits mistakes and weeps in repentance after that. And I personally have no respect whatsoever for a racist "god" that holds me accountable for a sin that my grand^1000 ancestor committed. This is unjust and foolish.
2003-04-13
TOBY FROM USA said:
Abu Abu-hoo,
You astonish me with your rhetoric. Things change as each individual chooses to change them? I don't think so.God never changes and neither does His word.The first bible was a latin translation in about 405A.D. The first english translation in the 1380s the King James in about 1611.The bible as we know, and many scholars have studied to find discrepencies in its teachings but always come to the same conclusion, there are no contradictions. Over the centuries Many archeologists and historians have found existence of facts written of in the Jewish texts (the bible) that at one time were thought to be purely fable. Mohammeds writings seem to relay that God somehow now eases up on His view of righteousness.
This to me appears to be a big contradiction to the commandments of God. God said, "be holy as I am holy." If the holiness of God is to be achieved then His commandments have to be met. Once again we do not believe in holiness through works alone. Faith and works go hand in hand. Because we cannot achieve this on our own because once again God said that the heart of man is on evil continually Christ came to defeat sin in the flesh in order to become the perfect sacrifice for the redemption of man. This had to be in order to redeem man back to God. Study the law of redemption talked of in the old testament to get a clearer view of the traditions of the people at that time. The law in the old testament was not given for the righteous but for the unrighteous. Where there is no law there is no sin. Tell me of one fable in the bible or miracle that God did not do. Maybe the water from the rock did not happen for Moses. Maybe God did not actually write the commandments in stone with His finger.Or maybe God did not really draw Christ up to Him. I believe it all happened. Even Elijah was caught up in a chariot in a fiery whirlwind. These sound like fables too but I say they happened. All the way to Jesus who is coming again to call His church away.
You astonish me with your rhetoric. Things change as each individual chooses to change them? I don't think so.God never changes and neither does His word.The first bible was a latin translation in about 405A.D. The first english translation in the 1380s the King James in about 1611.The bible as we know, and many scholars have studied to find discrepencies in its teachings but always come to the same conclusion, there are no contradictions. Over the centuries Many archeologists and historians have found existence of facts written of in the Jewish texts (the bible) that at one time were thought to be purely fable. Mohammeds writings seem to relay that God somehow now eases up on His view of righteousness.
This to me appears to be a big contradiction to the commandments of God. God said, "be holy as I am holy." If the holiness of God is to be achieved then His commandments have to be met. Once again we do not believe in holiness through works alone. Faith and works go hand in hand. Because we cannot achieve this on our own because once again God said that the heart of man is on evil continually Christ came to defeat sin in the flesh in order to become the perfect sacrifice for the redemption of man. This had to be in order to redeem man back to God. Study the law of redemption talked of in the old testament to get a clearer view of the traditions of the people at that time. The law in the old testament was not given for the righteous but for the unrighteous. Where there is no law there is no sin. Tell me of one fable in the bible or miracle that God did not do. Maybe the water from the rock did not happen for Moses. Maybe God did not actually write the commandments in stone with His finger.Or maybe God did not really draw Christ up to Him. I believe it all happened. Even Elijah was caught up in a chariot in a fiery whirlwind. These sound like fables too but I say they happened. All the way to Jesus who is coming again to call His church away.
2003-04-13
TOBY FROM USA said:
Abu you too are gravely mistaken about Jesus claiming Christianity as the only religion. You need to study a little more also. You take the word of the very type of people Christ said would come and change the Word of God. I'm not going to argue who was humble though Christ never owned personal belongings or wealth of any kind. As for the bible being full of fables what of the parting of the sea, the manna, the quail, Moses and the plagues on Egypt. Are not these spoken in the Koran. Adam wrote nothing. Moses wrote the Pentatauch. The bible as we have is a brief history of life as it began in the garden at the creation of man leading to the birth and death of Christ. Then writings from those who walked with Christ while He was alive and then witnessed His resurrection. All they wrote were those things spoken of by Christ as the spirit brought them to their rememberance. I don't mean to make you angry but if I do the bible says the word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than any two edged sword piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit and of the joints and marrow and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. If the word makes you angry then your hearts intent is evil. If you believe in Jesus then you cannot deny His ministry nor His message. One doesn't go without the other. If He said I am the door then their is no other way to God. Not by Mohammed or Budda, or Hari Krishna. You cannot deny what the prophets prophesied of Christ centuries before His birth, especially the virgin birth. To deny one is to deny all. It is not Zionist propoganda for they do not accept Christ, therefore they recieve their persecution. As for Christmas it too is related to a paganistic holiday. But he who regards the day to God regards it to God. We live and we die to God. Whether right or wrong we face Gods final judgement. Some to eternal damnnation some to eternal life. Mine is eternal life if I hold true to the faith. To God be the glory. Amen
2003-04-13
ABU ANTAR FROM THE MUSLIM WORLD said:
Toby, I don't understand your logic when you say that Mohammad "stole" from the old scriptures. By the same logic, Jesus also "stole" from the old scripture. And therefore all the prophets "stole" from Adam!?
Jesus also proclaimed that Christianity was the only valid religion at the time and criticized the Pharesees (uncoverted Jews) severely and stated that their salvation wouldn't be accepted without believing in his message.
The disgrace to the prophets didn't come from Mohammad, but from your "Holy Bible" that depicts them as blood thirsty murderers who butchered women and children and many times they got drunk and committed incest. The message of Islam came to state that those who utter such profanities against the Prophets are deviants and criminals. It seems to me you're more inclined to believe these deviants' accounts than the truth that debunks them all.
And how do you know that Muhammad wasn't humble? Where did you get this ignorant information, which indicates all your sources about Islam were written by its inveterately lying enemies. Mohammad is the most humble of all prophets. He used to sleep on a hay bed, cleaned and washed his own patched clothes, and when he died he didn't bequeath a penny to his family. Contrast this with the lives of the prophets Solomon and Joseph.
What holy words? You're taking the myths of charlatans and perverts to be holy words? The Bible is a bunch of tales, they are fables and twisted historical accounts. The Quran IS the word of God. It's God himself speaking to mankind.
If you genuinely want to learn about the truth, I suggest you read the Quran with open mind and the biography of the the Prophet Mohammad from Muslim sources, not from fabricating, sulking haters who want to pander to Jewish influence, and for other immoral political reasons want to slander the message of Islam.
And for your information, the Jews are the reason why everybody say "Happy Holliday" instead of "Merry Christmas".
Jesus also proclaimed that Christianity was the only valid religion at the time and criticized the Pharesees (uncoverted Jews) severely and stated that their salvation wouldn't be accepted without believing in his message.
The disgrace to the prophets didn't come from Mohammad, but from your "Holy Bible" that depicts them as blood thirsty murderers who butchered women and children and many times they got drunk and committed incest. The message of Islam came to state that those who utter such profanities against the Prophets are deviants and criminals. It seems to me you're more inclined to believe these deviants' accounts than the truth that debunks them all.
And how do you know that Muhammad wasn't humble? Where did you get this ignorant information, which indicates all your sources about Islam were written by its inveterately lying enemies. Mohammad is the most humble of all prophets. He used to sleep on a hay bed, cleaned and washed his own patched clothes, and when he died he didn't bequeath a penny to his family. Contrast this with the lives of the prophets Solomon and Joseph.
What holy words? You're taking the myths of charlatans and perverts to be holy words? The Bible is a bunch of tales, they are fables and twisted historical accounts. The Quran IS the word of God. It's God himself speaking to mankind.
If you genuinely want to learn about the truth, I suggest you read the Quran with open mind and the biography of the the Prophet Mohammad from Muslim sources, not from fabricating, sulking haters who want to pander to Jewish influence, and for other immoral political reasons want to slander the message of Islam.
And for your information, the Jews are the reason why everybody say "Happy Holliday" instead of "Merry Christmas".
2003-04-13
ABU ANTAR FROM THE MUSLIM WORLD said:
Toby, what you're reading in the "Bible" about Jesus Christ is mostly forgeries. You need to understand the difference between the belief system and the social rules of a particular message. The message of Islam is the same for all prophets, that God is one and only, that we will be accountable for our deeds in the Afterlife and either be rewarded or punished, etc. But the social/legal rules change from prophet to another. For example, it's prohibited under Jesus' and Mohammad's rules to marry one's sister, but it was OK for Adam's rules to marry one's non-twin sister. Get it? The core message (we call it Aqeeda) stays the same, but the social rules change from message to another.
As for divorce, it's clear that the no-divorce rule is socially dysfunctional and promotes adultry. Islam allows divorce, but at the same time despises it and strongly discourages it. It's considered the most hated rule. But there comes a time when life just doesn't work between the couple and divorce is the only possible solution for each to start a new life. Regrettable, yes, but unavoidable. By making marriage irreversible, couples would be very apprehensive about making such a committment. This discourages marriage, not encourages it!
You could you use the same logic for the message of Jesus Christ and consider it compared to the Old Testament as "garbage" written hundreds of years later. The Jews consider Jesus Christ a liar and imposter and the Virgin Marry as a sinner who committed adultry and was impregnated out of wedlock.
The Quran came to elminate the garbage in the Bible that was introduced by toadies and forgers, like the accusations of incest against prophets, that Jesus Christ is the "son" of God, or allowing pork and alcoholics.
As for divorce, it's clear that the no-divorce rule is socially dysfunctional and promotes adultry. Islam allows divorce, but at the same time despises it and strongly discourages it. It's considered the most hated rule. But there comes a time when life just doesn't work between the couple and divorce is the only possible solution for each to start a new life. Regrettable, yes, but unavoidable. By making marriage irreversible, couples would be very apprehensive about making such a committment. This discourages marriage, not encourages it!
You could you use the same logic for the message of Jesus Christ and consider it compared to the Old Testament as "garbage" written hundreds of years later. The Jews consider Jesus Christ a liar and imposter and the Virgin Marry as a sinner who committed adultry and was impregnated out of wedlock.
The Quran came to elminate the garbage in the Bible that was introduced by toadies and forgers, like the accusations of incest against prophets, that Jesus Christ is the "son" of God, or allowing pork and alcoholics.
2003-04-12
TOBY FROM USA said:
Mahmoud Amer, you too raise an educated angle on the history of the Jewish crisis. Most points I will agree upon but the one I will disagree on is that this was done by true Christians. Just as those of Islam have perverted their religion, unfortunately there are also those in our sect who do the same. Our Lord Jesus says there are those who will stand before the Lord and say Lord did not we do these things in your name and the Lord will say depart from me ye workers of iniquity I never knew you. The Jews all through history have turned from their faith and worship of God, even the Koran quotes this, therefore the Lord God has constantly allowed them to be chastised by nations through all their existence. God has been very patient with His dealings with Israel. I thank Him daily for His patience with me also. Even you and I, when we turn from following God's holy commandments He is not obligated to protect us but He is ever forgiving when we repent and return to Him. The one thing I don't understand about your religion is the fact that even though you accept the old testament in parts you do not accept the scripture of Gods promises to Abraham and also the ministry of Jesus. You constantly say the Hebrews are not Gods chosen people and all this is Zionist propoganda. But after Mohammed quotes scripture he has stolen from the ancient texts of the old testament and the writings of the Apostles He changes the Word to determine Islam is the only religion and he now is the true messenger. This in my mind is a disgrace to the prophets such as Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and many others who never claimed to be Gods true and only messenger but only one of many God chose to talk through in time. I have to place any of these men above Mohammed simply because of their humbleness before God. Mohammed was very arrogant and not very worshipful of the Almighty in his totally self centered concept to think He alone was worhty to, after 600 years, understand the Holy Word.
2003-04-12
MAHMOUD AMER FROM USA said:
Hi Toby
You raise so many red herrings in a little window, and I have to admit it is a skill but not necessarily a productive one in this dialog.
I will just comment on one as an example, you said:
"Israel was kicked and beaten down without a voice to speak for themselves"
Now as a fact of history Most hostilities towards the Jews were originally coming from "Christians" because
They thought of them as Christ killers. And I already gave you 3 vivid and solid to the ground historical incidents that were committed by "Christians) :
There was no Arabs/Muslims involved in Spanish Acquisition (In fact they were victimized even more that the Jews in the case).
There no Arabs/ Muslims involved in the rise of anti Semitism that swiped Europe after the Spanish Acquisition.
In fact it is well known that when Europe prosecuted them in the 16 and 17 century, the Muslims Turks have welcomed them in the Ottoman Empire. (Read Karen Armstrong the History of God for details).
There was no Arabs/Muslims involved in the Holocaust.
Also when Muslims conquered Jerusalem from the Roman Empire in the Seventh Century, the Patriarch's of Jerusalem (the authority of the Christian community)
Most important condition in the treaty with the new Muslim ruler is Not to allow the
Jews to migrate or live in Jerusalem because they are Christ killer and they don't want them in their midst. The Leader reluctantly agreed to the truce, however in his will he stated "I recommend that the next leader after me allow the migration of the Jews back to the holy land gradually. And the reason I agreed with Patriarch is because I did not want to start hostilities between Jews and Christians if I refused his term"
It is true that relationship between Arabs and Jews today are in it is low but it is because of the political conflict.
Now my SIMPLE Question to you:
Can you provide me with a historical fact that proves that Muslims in all time hated the Jews as much as "Christians" did
You raise so many red herrings in a little window, and I have to admit it is a skill but not necessarily a productive one in this dialog.
I will just comment on one as an example, you said:
"Israel was kicked and beaten down without a voice to speak for themselves"
Now as a fact of history Most hostilities towards the Jews were originally coming from "Christians" because
They thought of them as Christ killers. And I already gave you 3 vivid and solid to the ground historical incidents that were committed by "Christians) :
There was no Arabs/Muslims involved in Spanish Acquisition (In fact they were victimized even more that the Jews in the case).
There no Arabs/ Muslims involved in the rise of anti Semitism that swiped Europe after the Spanish Acquisition.
In fact it is well known that when Europe prosecuted them in the 16 and 17 century, the Muslims Turks have welcomed them in the Ottoman Empire. (Read Karen Armstrong the History of God for details).
There was no Arabs/Muslims involved in the Holocaust.
Also when Muslims conquered Jerusalem from the Roman Empire in the Seventh Century, the Patriarch's of Jerusalem (the authority of the Christian community)
Most important condition in the treaty with the new Muslim ruler is Not to allow the
Jews to migrate or live in Jerusalem because they are Christ killer and they don't want them in their midst. The Leader reluctantly agreed to the truce, however in his will he stated "I recommend that the next leader after me allow the migration of the Jews back to the holy land gradually. And the reason I agreed with Patriarch is because I did not want to start hostilities between Jews and Christians if I refused his term"
It is true that relationship between Arabs and Jews today are in it is low but it is because of the political conflict.
Now my SIMPLE Question to you:
Can you provide me with a historical fact that proves that Muslims in all time hated the Jews as much as "Christians" did
2003-04-12
TOBY FROM USA said:
Mr Nadeem, I can see you are a very angry young man with some doubts of your own or the anger would not be so great. Evidently you have not totally comprehended the true meaning of the birth or the ministry of Christ. If you read Gods word closely and compare it to the Koran you will find dicrepencies between the two. The Koran is based upon deeds in which Muslims fall very short of. Salvation in the Bible is based upon the Grace of God. The belief in Jesus is not sufficient for salvation for even the devils believe and tremble. True salvation comes through the cross of Christ and the blood He shed for the redemption of sins. Research the reason behind the blood sacrifices made from Genesis up to Christ. The early sacrifices Adam, Moses, and Abraham made only covered the sins they did not fully cleanse man. I don't have time to fully explain it all so you'll have to do a little on your own to understand. Man can never do enough good deeds to justify the heart of man where which Genesis says the very heart of man is on evil continually. You and I will always fall short of Gods righteousness because we make mistakes everyday we live.Our mistakes far outwiegh our good deeds.The one verse I stand on is that God so loved the world He sent His only begotten Son that all who believe on Him should have eternal life.Belief means to follow His very example in faith and deeds and to rest on His righteousness and not my own.If you believe in Christ you have to accept His word that He alone is the door and there is no other way to God but through Him.If not then nothing else in scripture is of any value (Bible or Koran).Jesus said I am the way the truth and the light.Take up your cross and follow me.So the cross was a very significant part of the ministry pointing to man's redemption through His suffering on the cross. Even Josephus the historian talks of Christs crucifixion. May the Holy Spirit of God give you light and understanding. God continue to bless you and your family.
2003-04-12
TOBY FROM USA said:
Abu I can't agree with you more that Christianity has been perverted over the centuries. Starting no less with Constantine. But Islam also has its roots in perversion by those who mask themselves as believers and are not. As for limiting God I perceive God as anything God chooses to be. The true word says God is a spirit and those who worship must worship in spirit and truth. The Koran if you read it close and compare it to the bible as we have you will find as I have many similarities in scripture. Mohammed only reworded some to confuse its readers as his devine revelation from God. Our word from Christ says a true believer should never divorce his wife for any reason but for adultry and fornication. For a true believer these should never enter into a relationship. Mohammed says it is okay to divorce for any reason as long as you have a waiting period before you marry again. Which word seems more holy to God? Should not our decision to marry be based upon a lifetime of commitment to one wife. Adam was given one woman in the garden to be his helpmate. If divorce was an option God would have given him a choice of women. Even Christ said divorce was not to be in the beginning for man and woman would be as one in flesh and spirit. Read Genesis where it talks of the sons of God. Christ was the true son of God for He was God incarnate or God in the flesh. Christ was God. Therefore there is only one God, Jehovah. If the writings and the lives of the apostles are without merit then the writings of Mohammed are without merit also for he never walked with Christ or saw the many miracles done by Him. You can't deny the scripture written at the very time of Christ and accept some garbage written six hundred years later as the truth. After so much time and persecution the word of God was translated to achieve the personal ambitions of Mohammed and his followers. Even the dead sea scrolls read as the King James translation. Read the similarities of the scriptures and decide.
2003-04-12
ABU ANTAR FROM THE MUSLIM WORLD said:
Toby:
The true message of Christianity wasn't perverted overnight. It took a long period of cynical pandering to pagan beliefs. Even at the time of Mohammad's message, there were many Christians who totally reject the idea of Trinity and the son-father business. The message of Mohammad came to a group of people with keen intrest in linguistics and memorization, at a time when human communication (through travel and trade) reached a ripe stage to guarantee the final message of Islam (Quran) will be preserved without modifications.
The Bible you're calling "scripture" is nothing more than a collection of myths, fables, and perverted stories about prophets that can be easily classified by the Motion Pictures of America as XXX-rated ;-)
And God isn't racist. All humans are equal before God. Your status before God is determined solely by your own deeds, not from whom you decended, or whether you're a Goy or Jew. God doesn't look at your shape or genes; God looks at your conscious, free-will choices. All humans have earthly fathers and mothers. God isn't a biological being or a three-dimension object constrained by space and time, which are His own creations. If He was constrained, he wouldn't be God. If God is subjected to time, then you would ask "who was before God?" If God is constrained by space, then you would ask "where is God?" There's NOTHING that you or I, with our limited brains, can imagine that is any close to God, the Unlimited.
When you say "son" and "God" at the same time, then you're subjecting God to time (Son should come after father, right?), therefore He couldn't be God.
I'm sorry to offend your pious, religious sensibilities, but it's lame and ridiculous for us humans to be so arrogant to attribute our family and biological values to God.
I'm not here to preach my religious belief to you, but it seems to me you're preoccuppied with irrelevant historical events while ignoring vital issues, such as the Oneness and Fairness
The true message of Christianity wasn't perverted overnight. It took a long period of cynical pandering to pagan beliefs. Even at the time of Mohammad's message, there were many Christians who totally reject the idea of Trinity and the son-father business. The message of Mohammad came to a group of people with keen intrest in linguistics and memorization, at a time when human communication (through travel and trade) reached a ripe stage to guarantee the final message of Islam (Quran) will be preserved without modifications.
The Bible you're calling "scripture" is nothing more than a collection of myths, fables, and perverted stories about prophets that can be easily classified by the Motion Pictures of America as XXX-rated ;-)
And God isn't racist. All humans are equal before God. Your status before God is determined solely by your own deeds, not from whom you decended, or whether you're a Goy or Jew. God doesn't look at your shape or genes; God looks at your conscious, free-will choices. All humans have earthly fathers and mothers. God isn't a biological being or a three-dimension object constrained by space and time, which are His own creations. If He was constrained, he wouldn't be God. If God is subjected to time, then you would ask "who was before God?" If God is constrained by space, then you would ask "where is God?" There's NOTHING that you or I, with our limited brains, can imagine that is any close to God, the Unlimited.
When you say "son" and "God" at the same time, then you're subjecting God to time (Son should come after father, right?), therefore He couldn't be God.
I'm sorry to offend your pious, religious sensibilities, but it's lame and ridiculous for us humans to be so arrogant to attribute our family and biological values to God.
I'm not here to preach my religious belief to you, but it seems to me you're preoccuppied with irrelevant historical events while ignoring vital issues, such as the Oneness and Fairness
2003-04-12
RAJAWALI FROM TEGANU said:
RAFAH, Gaza (CNN) -- A peace activist from the International Solidarity Movement was in serious condition Friday after being shot in the head by Israeli soldiers near the Palestinian refugee camp in Rafah, his organization said.
Tom Hundall was acting as a human shield to protect the refugee camp when he was wounded, the group said in a statement.
Hundall, a 22-year-old from Manchester, England, was the third activist injured in encounters with Israeli troops in the past month, the Palestinian-led organization said.
Tom Hundall was acting as a human shield to protect the refugee camp when he was wounded, the group said in a statement.
Hundall, a 22-year-old from Manchester, England, was the third activist injured in encounters with Israeli troops in the past month, the Palestinian-led organization said.
2003-04-12
MOHD. NADEEM FROM INDIA said:
To all those Christian missionary (eg. Toby) zealots out there, here is my logic.
You claim to be rationalists, scientific minded and analytic. You do great analysis on the scriptures, the Quran and then try to proselyte. Can you answer this rationally?
- How are you so dumb to believe that God, would choose to have a SON? And then to choose the same SON to die for other's sins? The wages of sin is not DEATH, but punishment in HELL. YOU must PAY for YOUR sins. The logic is simple. NO ONE else will PAY.
- You say believing in Isa (Jesus) will guarantee heaven. Well, by that logic, ALL muslims qualify! You do not need to "bring the good news" to Muslims!
- bible is erroneous and faulty. It WAS the true Gods' words until Paul came and converted it into a book of tales. If you point ONE (supposed) contradiction/error in the Quran, there are 100 in the Bible.
- In certain sections, the language of Bible is so gory and vulgar, that you would be ashamed to read it to your children. Anyway, that explains Hollywood.
- Why would GOD get his own SON killed? Isn't GOD supposed to be merciful? So, if he had to get his own son killed to save humanity, then what about people who were born BEFORE his SON did? Boy, they are damned to hell for no reason!
- Will GOD have more SONS? With all this sin and suffering, we need a coupla more!
- Will some Chritain explain the concept of trinity? But, hey, wait, decide what to say amongst yourselves first - Baptists, Mormons, Catholics and the hundred other sects ...
I have more .. many more questions. But, I do not want to embarass Toby, Benny, Billy and Pat!
You claim to be rationalists, scientific minded and analytic. You do great analysis on the scriptures, the Quran and then try to proselyte. Can you answer this rationally?
- How are you so dumb to believe that God, would choose to have a SON? And then to choose the same SON to die for other's sins? The wages of sin is not DEATH, but punishment in HELL. YOU must PAY for YOUR sins. The logic is simple. NO ONE else will PAY.
- You say believing in Isa (Jesus) will guarantee heaven. Well, by that logic, ALL muslims qualify! You do not need to "bring the good news" to Muslims!
- bible is erroneous and faulty. It WAS the true Gods' words until Paul came and converted it into a book of tales. If you point ONE (supposed) contradiction/error in the Quran, there are 100 in the Bible.
- In certain sections, the language of Bible is so gory and vulgar, that you would be ashamed to read it to your children. Anyway, that explains Hollywood.
- Why would GOD get his own SON killed? Isn't GOD supposed to be merciful? So, if he had to get his own son killed to save humanity, then what about people who were born BEFORE his SON did? Boy, they are damned to hell for no reason!
- Will GOD have more SONS? With all this sin and suffering, we need a coupla more!
- Will some Chritain explain the concept of trinity? But, hey, wait, decide what to say amongst yourselves first - Baptists, Mormons, Catholics and the hundred other sects ...
I have more .. many more questions. But, I do not want to embarass Toby, Benny, Billy and Pat!
2003-04-12
TOBY FROM USA said:
Abu evidently you have misread the scripture.How could Mohammed be wise enough to suddenly,six hundred years later after Christ correct scripture.Christ even foretold the death by which He should suffer,(the cross). He also spoke of those who would come to deceive many believers.Mohammed sounds alot like John Smith of the Mormon church. He too suddenly had a revelation from God to add to the Holy scriptures.Islam did not start with Adam, Abraham or Moses.There was no classified religeous sects at the time.There was only the Godly and the ungodly, serving as you say one God.You and I were gentiles of the heathen race according to the life of Abraham.The original Hebrew scriptures stated Isaac as the chosen seed of God through which Jesus would come.Now six hundred years later Mohammed changed all of this to say he alone understands the true meaning of the scripture.How totally foolish of the man. Does not the Koran speak of sacrifices for the sins of a nation? Did not Abraham make a sacrifice of blood to God?As far as Jesus, if you studied Isaiah 7:14-16,you would understand the birth of Christ.God does not have to do anything for mankind for man left God in the beginning, God did not leave man.The first shedding of blood was in the garden when God made coats of skins to cover mans nakedness.From then on the word talks of man sacrificing to attone for his sins. Through Christ came the last and ultimate blood sacrifice.From a virgin birth, conceived by the Spirit of God, He entered the world sinless.Not as Mohammed who had a earthly father and mother. The bible talks of the sons of God even in Genesis.So for Christ to called a son is nothing new.Christ if you study was God in the flesh come down to earth to redeem man back to Himself by a physical blood sacrifice.Only a powerful God could do such a thing.There is only one God.We only believe He is powerful enough to manifest Himself in the Father, Jesus, and His precious Holy Spirit.Even Genesis talks of Gods Spirit.
2003-04-11
TOBY FROM USA said:
Mat in Malaysia,
Good to hear from you. You are no doubt a muslim blinded by fundemental lies by Islamic radicals who twist the truth of true Islam for personal convictions. True peace can never be obtained if the PLO is not willing to crack down on terrorism and the cowards who attack women and children. This only fuels the hatred and distrust for the reign of the master of lies, Arafat. Why do allow the destruction of Islamic religion by Muslims and speak out when a few Palestinian terrorist dogs are killed by Israeli forces? Is the destruction of Israel so important that you turn a blinded eye to your real problem which lies inside you own religion. You have stood by while some have crept in and twisted and made corrupt the true faith of Islam and turned every Muslim against his brother. Bin Laden, Saddam, Arafat and others have sought personal gain therefore they use the guise of religion to pursue their goals. They remind me of TV evangelists in America. The only difference is that American preachers don't support violence unless you are Al Sharpton, who is not a minister at all but a false preacher of Christianity. A wolf in sheeps clothing. There are many in the Arab world. You need to pray and seriously seek the discernment of spirits. If it gives glory to God it is of God . If it brings praise to man or calls for vengeance by man's hand it is not of God. Vengeance belongs to God but justice for crimes will be dealt by man upon man according to Gods law. As for David or Moses killing Jews read a little further and try to undersytand why these things happened . It seems to me you need to further read and study scripture for yourself and come to the knowledge of understanding why things happened then and why they are happening now.I'm sure the Koran has some truth in it concerning end-time events.If not read the bible and look how the things the prophets foretold are falling into place.Look further than your own small world you inhabit.Think before you speak
Good to hear from you. You are no doubt a muslim blinded by fundemental lies by Islamic radicals who twist the truth of true Islam for personal convictions. True peace can never be obtained if the PLO is not willing to crack down on terrorism and the cowards who attack women and children. This only fuels the hatred and distrust for the reign of the master of lies, Arafat. Why do allow the destruction of Islamic religion by Muslims and speak out when a few Palestinian terrorist dogs are killed by Israeli forces? Is the destruction of Israel so important that you turn a blinded eye to your real problem which lies inside you own religion. You have stood by while some have crept in and twisted and made corrupt the true faith of Islam and turned every Muslim against his brother. Bin Laden, Saddam, Arafat and others have sought personal gain therefore they use the guise of religion to pursue their goals. They remind me of TV evangelists in America. The only difference is that American preachers don't support violence unless you are Al Sharpton, who is not a minister at all but a false preacher of Christianity. A wolf in sheeps clothing. There are many in the Arab world. You need to pray and seriously seek the discernment of spirits. If it gives glory to God it is of God . If it brings praise to man or calls for vengeance by man's hand it is not of God. Vengeance belongs to God but justice for crimes will be dealt by man upon man according to Gods law. As for David or Moses killing Jews read a little further and try to undersytand why these things happened . It seems to me you need to further read and study scripture for yourself and come to the knowledge of understanding why things happened then and why they are happening now.I'm sure the Koran has some truth in it concerning end-time events.If not read the bible and look how the things the prophets foretold are falling into place.Look further than your own small world you inhabit.Think before you speak
2003-04-11
TZAWRAW COOPER FROM USA said:
Assalam Akalium,
I think Toby needs some reading materials before posting another comment. I would like to suggest the "Talmud", "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", "The Secret Relationship between Blacks and Jews" I have a question for Toby why is it that only the Jews are the only group of people expelled from countries through out history? Toby is the poster child for America and what this country stands for. Do you think G-D wanted the native americans killed and the africans enslaved?
If a person is truly trying to be rightous and strive for deen, then we must tell the truth about all things. My heros are G-D's prophets and I strive to live my life like them. So, that means that no nation on earth is perfect. Most nation are rule by the evil whether there USA, Middle Eastern, Asian, African etc..Would Jesus celebrate Thanksgiving? I think that Toby needs to take some time and do some real soul searching, in the quiet of a room and answers life question with G-d's honest truth. All I try to do is tell the truth about all things whether they are American or otherwise. Once we answer question with G-d's truth then we will not have differnt points about the world. It says in the Quran that man (human beings) are the lowest of all creatures. I think we can all agree on that.
Mankind makes so much mischief
Wasaalam
I think Toby needs some reading materials before posting another comment. I would like to suggest the "Talmud", "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", "The Secret Relationship between Blacks and Jews" I have a question for Toby why is it that only the Jews are the only group of people expelled from countries through out history? Toby is the poster child for America and what this country stands for. Do you think G-D wanted the native americans killed and the africans enslaved?
If a person is truly trying to be rightous and strive for deen, then we must tell the truth about all things. My heros are G-D's prophets and I strive to live my life like them. So, that means that no nation on earth is perfect. Most nation are rule by the evil whether there USA, Middle Eastern, Asian, African etc..Would Jesus celebrate Thanksgiving? I think that Toby needs to take some time and do some real soul searching, in the quiet of a room and answers life question with G-d's honest truth. All I try to do is tell the truth about all things whether they are American or otherwise. Once we answer question with G-d's truth then we will not have differnt points about the world. It says in the Quran that man (human beings) are the lowest of all creatures. I think we can all agree on that.
Mankind makes so much mischief
Wasaalam
2003-04-11
MAT FROM MALAYSIA said:
whoa..tubby, you sound like newly-graduated from church of tomorrow academy.we're talking about road map to peace, aren't we? so what with 'muslim hate this and that' business about?you said you not a jew, but you sound like one! consider this...
said; "There is nothing 'promised' about a IDF bombing women and children"
said;"Israel could destroy the palestinians at any given time if they choose to do so"-they are doing that right now!are you blind?
said;"The Israeli refuse to go to the negotiation table and even when they call a cease fire the IDF cowards use the 'relative' calm to attack civilians and destroyed 60 shops...?"
said;"The Israel have broken the agreements time and time again, like the popular visit to the Haram as Sahrif"
I don't want to comment your holy script, but the bible talk about "death to jews,david and moses killed people".I don't know, why not you looking that yourself.
said; "There is nothing 'promised' about a IDF bombing women and children"
said;"Israel could destroy the palestinians at any given time if they choose to do so"-they are doing that right now!are you blind?
said;"The Israeli refuse to go to the negotiation table and even when they call a cease fire the IDF cowards use the 'relative' calm to attack civilians and destroyed 60 shops...?"
said;"The Israel have broken the agreements time and time again, like the popular visit to the Haram as Sahrif"
I don't want to comment your holy script, but the bible talk about "death to jews,david and moses killed people".I don't know, why not you looking that yourself.
2003-04-11
ABU ANTAR FROM MUSLIM WORLD said:
Toby, you said Mohammad (PBUH) changed the scripture for "his desire of deity?"
Mohammad never claimed to be God or son of God. On the contrary, the message of Mohammad was a correction to the perversion of the original scripture. Mohammad's message is a continuation of the message of Islam that started with Adam, to Abraham, to Moses, to Jesus (PBUT).
I mean do you really believe that Jesus is the son of God, or God needs a son? This son-father-mother business is a biological mechanism for us mortal species to continue procreation on this planet. Do you think God needs that?
You took a simple monothiestic message (the true Christianity) and perverted it with philosophical mumbo-jumbo to justify the unjustifiable, that God has son and let a bunch of Roman ruffians crucify him.
What kind of god is that? If you have any kind of education whatsoever, you should be ashamed of yourself when you utter a monstrosity like "Son of God"
Mohammad never claimed to be God or son of God. On the contrary, the message of Mohammad was a correction to the perversion of the original scripture. Mohammad's message is a continuation of the message of Islam that started with Adam, to Abraham, to Moses, to Jesus (PBUT).
I mean do you really believe that Jesus is the son of God, or God needs a son? This son-father-mother business is a biological mechanism for us mortal species to continue procreation on this planet. Do you think God needs that?
You took a simple monothiestic message (the true Christianity) and perverted it with philosophical mumbo-jumbo to justify the unjustifiable, that God has son and let a bunch of Roman ruffians crucify him.
What kind of god is that? If you have any kind of education whatsoever, you should be ashamed of yourself when you utter a monstrosity like "Son of God"
2003-04-10
TOBY FROM USA said:
Dear Bob from Japan and Nicholas J.,
Your comments on Afghanistan are truly ludicrous.
You undoubtly are very uneducated or have a short memory. The Taliban regime murdered and tortured its own people, and harbored terrorists. Now my suggestion to you is that if you want to support these people then go live under their rule for a while as an ordinary citizen. I don't think you will. You enjoy your freedom too much. Nick, you are not an American by any standard. Bob, I don't know what you are. The USA had three thousand reasons to attck the gov. of Afghanistan. Five Million to attack Iraq (the Iraqi people). You would complain no matter what action the US took.
The US has become the most powerful nation on earth. I personally don't know if we will maintain that status for the years to come. But, God help the world when we fall. No other nation has sought to help others on a more humanitarian scale than the US. I don't just mean the US gov. I am talking about private organizations across our country. We always have reached out to the oppressed all over the world because of our so diverse nationalities and religions. The Christian faith in America has been to more foreign countries to feed and get help to impoverished people than any other religion around the world. The Christian faith is the most unselfish faith in the world. Our gov. has made mistakes in the past but we elect a new president every four years. Each with their own idea how we should approach the rest of the world. Sadly some aren't always correct in their actions. Don't attack the American people as a result of your own anger. Look ay the good we have accomplished for human rights around the world. Next time you think of western capitalism look around at all the luxuries in your home, the clean water, sewage disposal, food quality, even your freedom of speech, freedom of worship. Where else can you have so much? Think before you speak out against the country that makes this possible.
Your comments on Afghanistan are truly ludicrous.
You undoubtly are very uneducated or have a short memory. The Taliban regime murdered and tortured its own people, and harbored terrorists. Now my suggestion to you is that if you want to support these people then go live under their rule for a while as an ordinary citizen. I don't think you will. You enjoy your freedom too much. Nick, you are not an American by any standard. Bob, I don't know what you are. The USA had three thousand reasons to attck the gov. of Afghanistan. Five Million to attack Iraq (the Iraqi people). You would complain no matter what action the US took.
The US has become the most powerful nation on earth. I personally don't know if we will maintain that status for the years to come. But, God help the world when we fall. No other nation has sought to help others on a more humanitarian scale than the US. I don't just mean the US gov. I am talking about private organizations across our country. We always have reached out to the oppressed all over the world because of our so diverse nationalities and religions. The Christian faith in America has been to more foreign countries to feed and get help to impoverished people than any other religion around the world. The Christian faith is the most unselfish faith in the world. Our gov. has made mistakes in the past but we elect a new president every four years. Each with their own idea how we should approach the rest of the world. Sadly some aren't always correct in their actions. Don't attack the American people as a result of your own anger. Look ay the good we have accomplished for human rights around the world. Next time you think of western capitalism look around at all the luxuries in your home, the clean water, sewage disposal, food quality, even your freedom of speech, freedom of worship. Where else can you have so much? Think before you speak out against the country that makes this possible.
2003-04-10
TOBY FROM USA said:
Abu, Abu,
How can you say you believe in God and your father Abraham and disregard the Holy scriptures? I don't think you believe at all. I'm not a Jew nor are any of my ancestors. Where do get these totally off the wall remarks? Jews have been persecuted for centuries. It's in the Koran, or do you read it. Do you leave out any reference to the Jews because of your hatred for them. If you study your religion right you'll see that you are all related through Abraham from Isaac and Ishmael. You have the same blood. How could Moses who wrote the pentatauch have known what would take place today. It seems that Mohammed rewrote some of the scriptures to advance his own desire for deity in the Arab world, for after all he used the scriptures written six hundred years before. If you study you'll find the Jews rejected Christ who the Koran also says is coming back. Do you deny that also? We Christians believe this too. But we also believe in the totality of all the scriptures not just those that benefit our ideology. Your belief spurns hatrd for all mankind that do not embrace your views. In the US Muslim, Jew and Christian live and work peacefully side by side. Not in the Arab world. Arabs fear, which is not of God or Alla, any indifference and thereby persecute all not of the Islam faith. They associate any indifference as an attack against Islam. Even when a dictator kills millions they would rather keep him in power than to have America, which is diverse in it's beliefs, deliver the oppresseed. When you attack America you attack Islam, Christianity, Buddism, and Jews. Therefore you attack peace. I don't expect you to listen or learn from the past because I feel your heart is hardened from false propoganda. I once again refer to history also as my guide and not always just the present. If you truly serve Alla get rid of the hate. Embrace righteousness, and learn from past mistakes. Hatred will eventually kill the heart of the spiritual man. Worship God in spirit.
How can you say you believe in God and your father Abraham and disregard the Holy scriptures? I don't think you believe at all. I'm not a Jew nor are any of my ancestors. Where do get these totally off the wall remarks? Jews have been persecuted for centuries. It's in the Koran, or do you read it. Do you leave out any reference to the Jews because of your hatred for them. If you study your religion right you'll see that you are all related through Abraham from Isaac and Ishmael. You have the same blood. How could Moses who wrote the pentatauch have known what would take place today. It seems that Mohammed rewrote some of the scriptures to advance his own desire for deity in the Arab world, for after all he used the scriptures written six hundred years before. If you study you'll find the Jews rejected Christ who the Koran also says is coming back. Do you deny that also? We Christians believe this too. But we also believe in the totality of all the scriptures not just those that benefit our ideology. Your belief spurns hatrd for all mankind that do not embrace your views. In the US Muslim, Jew and Christian live and work peacefully side by side. Not in the Arab world. Arabs fear, which is not of God or Alla, any indifference and thereby persecute all not of the Islam faith. They associate any indifference as an attack against Islam. Even when a dictator kills millions they would rather keep him in power than to have America, which is diverse in it's beliefs, deliver the oppresseed. When you attack America you attack Islam, Christianity, Buddism, and Jews. Therefore you attack peace. I don't expect you to listen or learn from the past because I feel your heart is hardened from false propoganda. I once again refer to history also as my guide and not always just the present. If you truly serve Alla get rid of the hate. Embrace righteousness, and learn from past mistakes. Hatred will eventually kill the heart of the spiritual man. Worship God in spirit.
2003-04-10
TOBY FROM USA said:
Hello Ahmoud Amer,
I'm not necessary mixing politics with religion no more than you. Any time a difference errupts between the west and the east it comes back to a holy war from the Arabs. Holy is a word you use too freely. There is nothing holy about a palestinian bombing women and children. This is truly and act of cowardice. Alla does not approve. Israel could destroy the palestinians at any given time if they choose to do so. But they are not doing so because they desire peace. The palestinians refuse to go to the negotiation table and even when they call a cease fire the palestinian cowards use the calm to attack civilians. Now who really desires peace? The palestinians have broken the agreements time and time again. They do things only for propoganda purposes to infuriate the Arab world against the Jews. Sure the Jews lived in peace for years along side the Arabs as long as Israel was kicked and beaten down without a voice to speak for themselves. They were given their land by the world after WWll which was theirs in the beginning. If you don't believe in prophecy why believe in the Koran? If one part is rejected then none of it has any significant meaning. You can't make up Gods rules as you go along. What God has promised Abrahams seed should be taken literally and not misconstrued to meet Arab desires. That's not a true belief in God or your Alla. If you worship the God of Abraham then why disregard His promises to Abraham? The Koran was written six hundred years after Christ and suddenly a God who never changes now changes His mind? I don't think so. Look at your own history and see how your generations have done under Islam. It seems to me that the dark ages of religion (and it's purely religion) have encompassed you and true righteousness has alluded you. You can't mingle hatred with the love of God for no man serves two masters. I say again there are alot of good righteous Muslims I pray for them to endure and serve God in fullness of spirit.
I'm not necessary mixing politics with religion no more than you. Any time a difference errupts between the west and the east it comes back to a holy war from the Arabs. Holy is a word you use too freely. There is nothing holy about a palestinian bombing women and children. This is truly and act of cowardice. Alla does not approve. Israel could destroy the palestinians at any given time if they choose to do so. But they are not doing so because they desire peace. The palestinians refuse to go to the negotiation table and even when they call a cease fire the palestinian cowards use the calm to attack civilians. Now who really desires peace? The palestinians have broken the agreements time and time again. They do things only for propoganda purposes to infuriate the Arab world against the Jews. Sure the Jews lived in peace for years along side the Arabs as long as Israel was kicked and beaten down without a voice to speak for themselves. They were given their land by the world after WWll which was theirs in the beginning. If you don't believe in prophecy why believe in the Koran? If one part is rejected then none of it has any significant meaning. You can't make up Gods rules as you go along. What God has promised Abrahams seed should be taken literally and not misconstrued to meet Arab desires. That's not a true belief in God or your Alla. If you worship the God of Abraham then why disregard His promises to Abraham? The Koran was written six hundred years after Christ and suddenly a God who never changes now changes His mind? I don't think so. Look at your own history and see how your generations have done under Islam. It seems to me that the dark ages of religion (and it's purely religion) have encompassed you and true righteousness has alluded you. You can't mingle hatred with the love of God for no man serves two masters. I say again there are alot of good righteous Muslims I pray for them to endure and serve God in fullness of spirit.
2003-04-10
RAJAWALI FROM TEGANU said:
It is the beginning of our new freedom, an Iraqi shopkeeper shouted at me. Then he paused, and asked: "What do the Americans want from us now?' The great Lebanese poet Kalil Gibran once wrote that he pitied the nation that welcomed its tyrants with trumpetings and dismissed them with hootings of derision. And the people of Baghdad performed this same deadly ritual yesterday, forgetting that they - or their parents - had behaved in identical fashion when the Arab Socialist Baath Party destroyed the previous dictatorship of Iraq's generals and princes. Forgetting, too, that the "liberators" were a new and alien and all-powerful occupying force with neither culture nor language nor race nor religion to unite them with Iraq.
2003-04-10
MAHMOUD AMER FROM USA said:
Thanks, Colins for your post.
It is another bright light in the dark world
that shows that there are people like you who are willing to listen and acknowlege the other side point of view and not carry on this useless finger pointing business...
MAHMOUD AMER
It is another bright light in the dark world
that shows that there are people like you who are willing to listen and acknowlege the other side point of view and not carry on this useless finger pointing business...
MAHMOUD AMER
2003-04-10
MAHMOUD AMER FROM USA said:
Toby
I see you are greatly mixing religion with politics and I don't think this is healthy way of thinking. The issue we have in our hand is that two people are fighting for the same piece of land. To say that one party is entitled to it because God promised it to them is ludicrous.
As much as you are entitled to your believe (The promise Frenzy thing), the Arabs too are entitled to their believe that they should resist Israeli occupation to their lands.
But religion can still be employed in a fruitful way for example, in all religion, although there are differences they almost agree about one thing and that is we should do good deeds, help the oppressed and deal with justice.
So our action should be based on teachings rather than mere prophecies.
So when Israel inflicts atrocities against the Palestinians we need to condemn it. The same rule implies when Palestinians do the same to Israelis, we condemn them as well.
As for judging 1.2 Billion people based on few extremists is really not accurate.
And if you really look into the history of this region you will notice that the Jews enjoyed their life in relative harmony for hundreds of years side by side with the Arabs.
(No need to remind you of the Spanish acquisition, the rise of anti Semitism and The Holocaust are exclusively European /Christian inventions and Hitler was not Arab right?).
I really see no use of answering all you arguments some of them are really off limit like
"The Arab nations have always been a self centered people."
WOW! What a large stroke you just brushed all the Arabs with????!!!!!!!!
Finally, I ask God to guide us all to the correct path.
Blessed are those who follow Guidance.
Salam, Salom, Peace...
Believe me we can coexist........
MAHMOUD AMER
I see you are greatly mixing religion with politics and I don't think this is healthy way of thinking. The issue we have in our hand is that two people are fighting for the same piece of land. To say that one party is entitled to it because God promised it to them is ludicrous.
As much as you are entitled to your believe (The promise Frenzy thing), the Arabs too are entitled to their believe that they should resist Israeli occupation to their lands.
But religion can still be employed in a fruitful way for example, in all religion, although there are differences they almost agree about one thing and that is we should do good deeds, help the oppressed and deal with justice.
So our action should be based on teachings rather than mere prophecies.
So when Israel inflicts atrocities against the Palestinians we need to condemn it. The same rule implies when Palestinians do the same to Israelis, we condemn them as well.
As for judging 1.2 Billion people based on few extremists is really not accurate.
And if you really look into the history of this region you will notice that the Jews enjoyed their life in relative harmony for hundreds of years side by side with the Arabs.
(No need to remind you of the Spanish acquisition, the rise of anti Semitism and The Holocaust are exclusively European /Christian inventions and Hitler was not Arab right?).
I really see no use of answering all you arguments some of them are really off limit like
"The Arab nations have always been a self centered people."
WOW! What a large stroke you just brushed all the Arabs with????!!!!!!!!
Finally, I ask God to guide us all to the correct path.
Blessed are those who follow Guidance.
Salam, Salom, Peace...
Believe me we can coexist........
MAHMOUD AMER
2003-04-10
HUSNA FROM MALAYSIA said:
Quran 3:114
They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.
God is the greatest and god said clearly about jews in holy Quran. I believe in Quran. Jews will be punished . God promised heaven to obedient Muslim.
They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.
God is the greatest and god said clearly about jews in holy Quran. I believe in Quran. Jews will be punished . God promised heaven to obedient Muslim.
2003-04-10
ABU ANTAR FROM THE MUSLIM WORLD said:
Toby:
I really don't care about decrepit scripture that urges its supporters to instigate Armageddon by sacrificing millions of human lives in one big orgy of human sacrifice.
"O Beam me up to heaven in thy great Rapture after I murdered all those Muslim infidels and converted the Jews!!!". This Christian-Zionist hogwash is pathetic and a quasi-religious facade for a criminal ideology.
What I'm concerned about is that an armed thug breaks into the house that you, your family, and your ancestors have been living in for centuries, kills your mother and father, kicks you and the rest of your family into the street after robbing you of all your possessions.
And when you question that thug why he did that, he answers: "The scripture tells me that G*d promised my great^1000-daddy to take the house."
You're using the same logic to justify war crimes and brutality.
What's worse, you realize that this thug is a decendant of the Khazars who never lived on the land of Palestine.
The Israeli society, for your information, is the most pathological society on Earth today. They converted the "Holy Land" into the white slavery, exstacy trade, child pornography, and demostic violence capital of the world, let alone their dismal record of war crimes and human rights abuses against the Palestinians.
If these are the "Chosen People of G*d", then what kind of mentually confused and disturbed god it is? May be instead of contributing your "charity" money to prey on devastated people and take advantage of their situation to convert them to your "faith", you should buy a pair of eyeglasses for that myopic god.
I really don't care about decrepit scripture that urges its supporters to instigate Armageddon by sacrificing millions of human lives in one big orgy of human sacrifice.
"O Beam me up to heaven in thy great Rapture after I murdered all those Muslim infidels and converted the Jews!!!". This Christian-Zionist hogwash is pathetic and a quasi-religious facade for a criminal ideology.
What I'm concerned about is that an armed thug breaks into the house that you, your family, and your ancestors have been living in for centuries, kills your mother and father, kicks you and the rest of your family into the street after robbing you of all your possessions.
And when you question that thug why he did that, he answers: "The scripture tells me that G*d promised my great^1000-daddy to take the house."
You're using the same logic to justify war crimes and brutality.
What's worse, you realize that this thug is a decendant of the Khazars who never lived on the land of Palestine.
The Israeli society, for your information, is the most pathological society on Earth today. They converted the "Holy Land" into the white slavery, exstacy trade, child pornography, and demostic violence capital of the world, let alone their dismal record of war crimes and human rights abuses against the Palestinians.
If these are the "Chosen People of G*d", then what kind of mentually confused and disturbed god it is? May be instead of contributing your "charity" money to prey on devastated people and take advantage of their situation to convert them to your "faith", you should buy a pair of eyeglasses for that myopic god.
2003-04-10
TOBY FROM USA said:
Dear Abu Antar, I can see you are really a very predjudice person who needs Gods help in understanding scripture. When Israel became a nation after world war two the Arabs sought their destruction then. Why? Even after what Hitler done to them all over Europe the Arabs had no pity on them even in a humanitarian way. The Arab nations have always been a self centered people. They fear a very small presence of Jews in the region and for the life of me I can't see why. Why don't you let Alla deal with them if he is so powerful and is blessing you so much? Why do you fear? The Israelis don't fear you. Am I missing something here or are you? Why is it every time you make war with Israel you get beat? Is God on your side or theirs? You better read the book a little closer. Countries have tried to destroy the Hebrews for centuries and have failed. True Islam is a peaceful religion if you believe what it says. But after 911 i believe there are those who hide behind its values and disgrace the true meaning. I'm sure if Alla lives he is not pleased. I know my God Jehovah is not pleased. That's why we have overcome the terrorists and will continue to do so. Through the prayers of the believers in the US God is still on our side. As long as a remnant of believers remain God will give righteous judgement. I pray for you and all true seekers of peace no matter what you believe. I hope you do the same. If you are a true Muslim you will. Hatred is not in the Koran or am I misled? Is not vengence Gods? God bless you.
2003-04-09
TOBY FROM USA said:
Sirs my comments deal with the promise of the messiah and the land through the seed of Isaac as in Genesis 12:1-3,7,14-18,Gen. 17:18,19, and Romans 9:7-9. Through Sarah and not Hagar was the seed promised. Though God did bless Ishmael with 12 sons who became 12 princes of twelve nations, the seed and promise was through Isaac. I'm considered a gentile adopted and grafted into the family of God and I have no problem with the Jews at all. I take Gods word as it is written and don't try to change it to meet my needs. As for a semite response to your reference I don't really view Israel any way but through history. I don't know any Jews personally as friends though I've met some in my life, but I have known a few Muslims. If I had to choose who to take sides with it would be the Jews, simply for historys sake concerning scriptures. That's all I can base my beliefs on. Once again I don't mean any disrespect to the Muslim faith, but judging by actions and statements made by Islamic clergy or Islamic fundamentalists I see no true dedication to God. But on the other hand even in our Christian faith, and I hate to say, there are regretably those who also don't practice what they preach. "The walk doesn't always line up with the talk", to quote an old cliche. For Palestinians to come to peace with Israel is to first get Arafat out of the way and get a competent leader who desires real peace through negotiations and not terrorism. Once again I'll state that terror will not sway the Israelis. Most Americans will support Israel one way or the other. We also have supported many Islamic countries only to have our hand bitten by the very dog we fed. Of course we have our reasons behind what we do but look how the western world fairs under democratic order compared to dictators in the middle east. We are not perfect but you don't see Americans fleeing to those countries in search of freedom. You come to our country.
2003-04-09
COLINS FROM USA said:
Reading a lot of the comments in the iviews forums, I shake my head and wonder when will we all progress from backward thinking. Electronic technology has allowed the speed to display our thoughts which betray our self serving prejudices that 'my side'is right and 'your side' is wrong, 'my fight' is just and 'your fight' is unjust, 'my God' is great and 'your God' is false, 'my land' is mine and 'your land' is mine, 'my action' is holy and 'you action' is evil...,on and on to no end. We keep missing the reality that can only be one world. The speed of travel and the spread of real information have made the potential of that fact more possible than not.
Mahmoud (in this comments string,) thank you for being a bright light in a world of dark and backward thoughts.
Mahmoud (in this comments string,) thank you for being a bright light in a world of dark and backward thoughts.
2003-04-09
MAHMOUD AMER FROM USA said:
Just a quick reply to Toby:
You said :
" The bible says the promise would come through Isaac not Ismael."
The problem is exactly in the above statement.
When people think that God has favored someone over the other. Or when people say that Iseral/Plastine is promised to the Jews and this promise is made by God!
With all due respect this is totally false.
Infact God did not promise any Land to anyone
PERIOD.
God doesn't promise materialistic or political
gains, He only promises spiritual gains.
Can you please tell me another promise made by God to any Christain or Muslium?
Simply there is none...
So instead of the above statement
It would be better to say :
" The bible says that all men are created equal and as much as Isrealis have the right to live in the land so are the Arabs"
IF we start thinking this way, It will be the first step toward the Road Map.
Now my question to you:
Isn't my statement is more compatibe with American values than yours?
Thank you...
MAHMOUD AMER
You said :
" The bible says the promise would come through Isaac not Ismael."
The problem is exactly in the above statement.
When people think that God has favored someone over the other. Or when people say that Iseral/Plastine is promised to the Jews and this promise is made by God!
With all due respect this is totally false.
Infact God did not promise any Land to anyone
PERIOD.
God doesn't promise materialistic or political
gains, He only promises spiritual gains.
Can you please tell me another promise made by God to any Christain or Muslium?
Simply there is none...
So instead of the above statement
It would be better to say :
" The bible says that all men are created equal and as much as Isrealis have the right to live in the land so are the Arabs"
IF we start thinking this way, It will be the first step toward the Road Map.
Now my question to you:
Isn't my statement is more compatibe with American values than yours?
Thank you...
MAHMOUD AMER
2003-04-09
ABU ANTAR said:
Toby's remarks are straight out of the Zionist propaganda scripts :)
Israel is a blessing? Since the creation of that foreign body in heart of the Muslim world, the entire region has been bleeding. Most of the wars in the region are the direct result of the creation of that racist state. Even this war against Iraq is instigated by Israeli-firster, like Wolfowitz, Perle, Feith, Abrams, and all the rest of the neocon mafia.
Palestinians don't work? Most of the Palestinians are FORCED to work menial jobs for the occupying Israelis and settlers because of the brutal military occupation that keeps demolishing their civilian and economic infrastructure. How could they work if they are getting killed by the dozens on a daily basis?
And Palestinans are terrorists? Israel is the BIGGEST terrorist known to mankind. The Israelis came to Palestine and introduced terrorism to the Middle East. Remember the Hagana and Irgun mafia gangs that wreaked terror and destruction in the name of Zionist Nationalism. OF COURSE!!! They are freedom fighters, right? They have the right to bomb the markets and ethnically cleanse 600,000 Palestinians refugees because they are the "Chosen of People of G*d", while the Palestinians are devil-worshiping, sub-human savages, right?
Israeli soldiers are killing Palestinian children for sport. Every week dozens of Palestinian women and children die but you never hear about them in the Zionist media of the US. You only hear when a desperate Palestinian gives away his life because the despicable Israeli OCCUPIERS made an unbearable hell out of his life.
Peace will never take place in the MUSLIM WORLD (not Middle East, this is a Zionist misnomer) unless that cancerous Zionist Entity is excised. And it will, sooner than later, like all the filthy invaders that came to region.
Israel is a blessing? Since the creation of that foreign body in heart of the Muslim world, the entire region has been bleeding. Most of the wars in the region are the direct result of the creation of that racist state. Even this war against Iraq is instigated by Israeli-firster, like Wolfowitz, Perle, Feith, Abrams, and all the rest of the neocon mafia.
Palestinians don't work? Most of the Palestinians are FORCED to work menial jobs for the occupying Israelis and settlers because of the brutal military occupation that keeps demolishing their civilian and economic infrastructure. How could they work if they are getting killed by the dozens on a daily basis?
And Palestinans are terrorists? Israel is the BIGGEST terrorist known to mankind. The Israelis came to Palestine and introduced terrorism to the Middle East. Remember the Hagana and Irgun mafia gangs that wreaked terror and destruction in the name of Zionist Nationalism. OF COURSE!!! They are freedom fighters, right? They have the right to bomb the markets and ethnically cleanse 600,000 Palestinians refugees because they are the "Chosen of People of G*d", while the Palestinians are devil-worshiping, sub-human savages, right?
Israeli soldiers are killing Palestinian children for sport. Every week dozens of Palestinian women and children die but you never hear about them in the Zionist media of the US. You only hear when a desperate Palestinian gives away his life because the despicable Israeli OCCUPIERS made an unbearable hell out of his life.
Peace will never take place in the MUSLIM WORLD (not Middle East, this is a Zionist misnomer) unless that cancerous Zionist Entity is excised. And it will, sooner than later, like all the filthy invaders that came to region.
2003-04-09
TOBY FROM USA said:
I'm totally appalled at the disinformation in your artical. Why don't you report how so-called suicide bombers attack small children and old women in Israel. How they fire on schools and attack buses. Palestinians are not a peaceful people. Israel always reacts in self defense. Israel is the in the right on this. Arafat promotes hatred toward Israel as do most illiterate people in the region. I've noticed that if most middle-eastern men would work for a living they wouldn't have time to hate anyone. With as much oil as the middle east has you would think the region would be wealthy. But I suppose most of the Sheiks have the money and force the people to live in poverty. That's the only way they can rule their people. These terrorists are nothing more than deadbeats that won't work for a living but would rather let someone else support them. I've also noticed that very few Israelis are on TV while all Palestinians are always available for the camera. Do these people ever work at all? There are very good Muslims in America because they enjoy the posperity of our country and the ability to live in peace along side Jews here. If they can do it here why can't those idiots in the middle east? Israel is not a threat but a blessing to all who bless them. The USA has always, and I pray will continue, supported Israel and we have been blessed beyond measure. If the Arab countries would do this they too would be blessed of the true God. History as always speaks for itself. Just because you have a problem with life don't take it out or blame it on the Jews. No people in history has ever been persecuted as much as they have and still overcome every obstacle with Gods help. It's time the Arab world realizes that Israel will not just go away or lay down and be subdued by terror. Most of the civilized world knows this. It is only the Arabs that can't accept it. The bible says the promise would come through Isaac not Ismael.
2003-04-08
