You pose a question about the future of Kashmir which is well known as  " Heaven of the Earth" but unfortunatley rightnow burning in the fire. In my opinion first of all India & Pakistan withdraw their armies then they give us right of selfdetermination where we can decide about our future. If we get the chance of right of self determination my vote will go in favor of an independent Kashmir.

i personally feel that it should be a part of india.  it is of course my personal opinion.  i feel so because kashmir has been a part of india for millennia and india does not give any preference to a particular religion.

Brother, I respect your sentiment, I am very fond of India and, specially, her unique spread of cultures, people, aromas and whatelesnot. It's sad how her colonial masters dismembered her.

But, we need to look at quite a few things before we discuss this sore left between people who had otherwise shared Eid and Diwali together for a far longer while than London louts would wish us to believe.

Kashmir, like Deccan, was always an independent sovereign state. When we study the Indian history, we find that Gwalior, Oudh and 342 other small and medium sized states were also independent soverign states, but these joined the "Union" through an Instrument of Accession.

Sometimes after the Sikh wars, our Great Brits annexed Kashmir and sold it to the Dogras, for a price that even a East End (London) thug won't accept for his stolen goods! Lock, stock, the valley and her people were sold for 7.5 million rupees.

Accession was linked with one other condition; the demographic make up of the state. Hari Singh wanted to stay independent of either country, but was pushed to execute the Instrument of Accession in an interesting James Bond style move.

The Kashmiris had already had enough of Bari Saerkaar's alcoholic high handedness, they rose against being again sold off gainst their will. 

The UN intervened. The civilised nations of our world promised them that if they ceased fire, we will hold a plebecite to find out what they wished to do.

My friend, the easy going, fine natured, one of the finest craftsman and artisan, Kashmiri waited patiently for the civilised nations to deliver on their promise after laying arms one frozen February morning in 1948. (sorry, I am no scholar and don't remember the exact date)

They waited a whole generation. We did nothing. Our inaction forced them to pick up arms and start on a journey of their struggle. And, now India has been bogged down in the valley for almost a couple of decades. This seems to have given India nothing other than an occassional Bollywood bumper boxoffice hit based on some valliant kashmir script.

Won't it be good, both, for India and Pakistan (in our electronic age, which has renederd territorial control as a smelly baggage of the some distant past) to set up Kashmir with open borders with both the countries if not also with China and Central Asia - and have an example of realtime global trading and tourism at our doorsteps?

I love India and Pakistan, but they idiotically keep growling at each other while the real enemy dances all the way to the bank with their defence budgets.

thumbs up for a plebescite, but do you really think the problem of terrorism will subside if kashmir was made independent?

Yaar, be honest, when did you last see someone becoming a terrorist if treated as a human being? of couse, other than in US movies or in the White Supremacist propoganda?

The kasmiris have lived at peace with their neighbours since god knows when. How many neighbours have they overrun in, say, these 2020 years? What do we expect from people when we refuse to honour our promises and break them with military might and the collusion of some divine civilised nations? Garlands and baggoo goshes? (Kashmiri pear, the finest ever you could taste in the world. It just melts by the time it travels out of the state)

Try it and you will see that the Kashmiri will be as cute as some Lucknow Kidwais.

i am afraid it would just become another taleban.
I never knew you will digest such a lame excuse designed, primarily, for scaring the intelligence-defficient Americans' pants off and also to mute a growing voice within India.

Very hard to find anything like that since Alexander. We may have look into the Ashoka period, but a union, as you say, like the EU is not exactly how we are treating people? I never knew, we grow nukes to invite our neighbours to a Sunday afternoon Re-union party?

Indian Congress and the great Brits manufactured Pakistan - for the noble purpose of diluting the the largest minority vote bank (the Indian Muslims) and as a deterent to the historic links the Indian Mussalmaan had with the Trucial (now known as the Gulf) states. Our good old Cricket fame Sharjah royal, Qasmi's mother was a Mumbaite. The famous UAE NeoCon, Khaleej Time's Galadari's grandmother was an Indian Muslim.

The list goes on and on. We just need to examine the Princes College records.

Jinnah never wanted a separate state. He was pushed by the Hang Low Sexnon cunning.

what happened to all those hindu pundits and the temples in kashmir?

Brother, weren't they okay before we turned the Kashmiri into an enemy?

why aren't there any hindus or buddhists in pakistan controlled kashmir?
Please educate me, I am really as lost. But all of this may have something to do with the great British gift of ethnic cleansing India?

How many Rabbis do we now find in Ramallah?

My friend, best to befriend all our neighbours. The west is keeping these swords hanging over our heads to keep our actual potential in check. Sit up one day, see beyond the interesting headlines and we will find that bot the Indians and the Pakistanis have a common enemy.

(What should we call the Nangas and the Naxalites - Nangxibaans?)

     My personal opinion :-

1) No side would agree to hand over Kashmir to other side. If any side wants to gain control of Kashmir, the only way by which they can get it is by WAR.

2) If there should be no war, then both sides should agree to have Kashmir, in the sense that half of Kashmir goes to Pakistan, and the remaining half goes to India.

3) If that is also not possible then the only last option left is an Independent Kashmir.

    Kashmir issue is a very complicated and sensitive issue, and the solution will not come any soon, and also would there be any solution to this issue, we do not know.

3) If that is also not possible then the only last option left is an Independent Kashmir.

Brother, Kashmir was an independent sovereign state. The Brits messed it up. I can�t tell you here, but I will PM you the secret why the Brits can�t stay without messing things up!

Kashmir has every right to become an independent state.

And, if I were a Kashmiri, I would sue the Brits and also the Indians for compensation.

In fact, the Indians and the Pakis should also sue the Brits for mesing their lives and a few other things up. I feel, a couple of trillion pounds would should do. I know a "no win, no fee" lawyer in London.

Assalamu Alaikum ,

There is no complete solution of Kashmir Issue. Unless and untill we stray away the leaders  from both the borders  who do not want the solution  for the problem but what they  want to  gain is - complete political advantage. Both the countries know very well that the third party  {US} is in advantage and it does not want us to finalise something.  You and me talk of numerous solutions and suppose  even  if we come to a final one its of no use. They enjoy blood shed at  both the sides. Secondly its the media thats raving this issue. Indian media shows that its Pakistanis who had done it and its similar there. A minor issue is raised up so much that there's discussions continuosly, ultimately they forget the point they are speaking to, moving till the end.
A pakistani family who visited our neighbours , said the same, that its the media  which is fanning the hatred amongst both  the countries. That family had a school going boy who spent his time with us. Naturally we  had a good bond of friendship. Before he left us we asked him, "When will u b back Khurram?" We all were awstruck by his answer. He said , " I will return  India only as a soldier" Am not blaming any country men but what i want to say is we achieved nothing except  HATRED with those white collar meetings. And as "Mohammed" suggested  war is the solution--------, But i feel no. It again spreads hatred for muslims  in India. Its happening that during any of the blasts or even a small incidents  occur, innocent muslims are put in jails naming then as "Terrorist". May be one amongst   50 is a wrong person but the rest 49 are put in jails with the same proofs and verifications.  Lets leave  this issue for some more years and the coming generations  will forget it.  "Being neighbours thodi bahoth khit- pit tho jayaz hai"

Also Hats Off to the knowledge of our member "Whisper" . Being from  a different place he has got a very deep knowledge of  India.

Dear s666 I have many contradictions with your approaches which we have been discussed in this forum some time ago e.g. you are asking again that why not Hindu & Pundits in Our Kashmir if u remember I replied you and at that time you were almost  to concur with my approach.

What I understand from your all of discussion under this topic that trying to prove this only that �Kashmir future will very well if it go India� my friend why are you forgetting  that India occupy the Kashmir by cheating. Should I have remind you again that what was India promised in 5^th January 1949 before UNO with the Kashmiri people & many times this promised was repeated by the Indian leadership in the early years as can be seen in the Mr. Jawar Lal Neru (late) letter to Pakistani counterpart in 1953 in which he was very clearly repeated his promise regarding of Kashmir Plebisite. Dear this is hard truth that India have never ever a right to rule on Kashmir against their will, but they rule by aggression.I don�t want to repeat the same things which I have been already discussed with you before some time if you wish you can again visit below link

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5930 - www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5930  

Please keep differentiate between terrorist and freedom fighter. You many time use the term of terrorist about the Kashmiries they are not terrorist but freedom fighter, they are terrorize by the Indian army. 

Secondly you are afraid if Kashmir come as independent state then may Taliban like people come.

My fried honestly I invite you that come and we pray together with who, is the founder of earth and sky who is the real ruler of every thing that Taliban like people rule on Kashmir.

Let me ask some question?

Are you want Justice in society?

Then let�s come Taliaban to rule here they have ideology of justice and they have dare to implement the justice in practical shape.

Do you want to end of discrimination in between the societies like higher class, middle class, lower class?

Then we have to adopt the Taliban ideology as they provide us an example to eliminate these classes in Afghan society which was the most complicated society because there war lords were ruling.

Dear you raise the concern that Taliban demolish the temple etc. in Afghanistan. Do you now how many people were going to worship these places. If you have acknowledge you reply will no. So if no body was going to worship on these temple they demolished the these temple not for this that these belong from Buddhist but they were useless.  Second thing this was the Taliban tertiary in their own territory if they find any thing which has no use then they can destroy no one has a right to ask why.

My friend if you look the Taliban ruling time in Afghanistan with the neutral way without keeping the double standard glass on your eyes you will find it was exemplary & remarkable in case of peace, self-honor, safety point of view and many of others fields like complete termination of poisoning seed �posth� (sorry my mind memory is not giving me the proper English word for this)

If you remember in last days of Taliban regime there were two westerns journalists who were abducted there & when they were release they were very inspired by the Taliban moral values & their way of dealing which they were also expressed very openly before media.

Taliban regime was a example for the third world who are always ready to surrender in front of the USA and its great allay IMF & W.B. But unfortunately they have little lack of knowledge about the world politics & they were not success to show the little flexibility on right time.

"I agree the Kashmir 'question' is complicated and I don't see the two sides coming to a solution soon".

Being a Kashmiri i would like to tell u that Kashmir problem is not so complicated as they made, this is actually a propaganda that Kashmir problem is very complicated such kind of things highly propagated by those powers who wants the status quo position of Kashmir.

Just if India & Pakistan withdrawals their armies from the Kashmir land and plebiscite should arrange under the neutral countries or UNO for a Kashmiri people as India & Pakistan agreed in UNO before and give decision power to the Kashmiri people what they want about their future?

Whether they want to Join Pakistan or they want to go in favor of India or they want to come as an independent state. Whatever the majority will decide everyone should accept according to the Sub-continent division formula which was disclosed in 3^rd June 1947.

Brothers, PLEASE stand back from the accepted 'final solution': WAR.

I do not know who was give the statement in favor of war but i do agree that its seem impossible to get independence without war especially such kind of circumstances where the occupier closed all doors for talk and try to oppress the people by bullet even i believe negotiation is the best way for the solution of any problem.

WAR causes destruction, damage, loss of lives. 

BUT it is my opinion that if any side wants to gain total control of Kashmir, how can that be possible by negotiations? No side is ready to hand over Kashmir to the other side.

The negotiations have just been dragging the Kashmir issue since about the past 50 years, without any solution. People have been dying on both sides of the border. Have negotiations helped to calm the situation? No. The situation gets tense and worse day by day.

brother Whisper, i never said pakistan is india's enemy nor i posted this topic against muslims. 

My post didn't imply anything of the sort.

there are millitant hindus and muslims who do not want us to be peaceful. come to india and you will find as many masjids as there are temples.

I am often in India and am quite at ease about understanding India. 

just go to indian kashmir and see for yourself how people are treated. no kashmiri helps a terrorist. when i said kashmir will turn into another taleban in regard to its poor people.  poverty breeds unethical behaviour.

If poverty breeds such behaviour then we would have a huge problem in India with or without the Kashmiris. Poverty is used as a mere excuse and almost as a lid to keep the truth from oozing out in the open, by our civilised masters.

Injustice and militaristic arrogance breeds terrorism.

Brother, weren't they okay before we turned the Kashmiri into an enemy?

then what did hindus or buddhists do in afghanistan?  why were those temples and monastries destroyed? 

How shall we hold what happened in Afghanistan against the poor Kashmiris?

this is why i say kashmir will be another taleban. why can't the religion and the state kept separate?

Right now penalising Kashmiris for something they haven�t as yet done is a bit like Sardar jee�s hore choopo ganay. Have you heard about that?

Right now, it�s us, the entire global community that has failed them.

We are the culprits. Let�s correct ourselves and give them their right, let them exercise their right of self �determination. Once, we have done that and they start to misbehave with us then we would all get together and beat them up!

My friend, best to befriend all our neighbours. The west is keeping these swords hanging over our heads to keep our actual potential in check. Sit up one day, see beyond the interesting headlines and we will find that both the Indians and the Pakistanis have a common enemy.
thank you Whisper for agreeing with me.  i have been saying the same thing in many of my posts.

They have far more than just a few languages, customs or a range of cuisine in common.

these naxallites have to be checked as well.  if naxalites and terrorists join hands, then it will be the worst of situations.

My point is that Talibanisation comes in a whole range of colours.

All the countries of the region must grow up and start acting in own best interest. It�s in the best interest of India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Central Asian States + Iran to form something like the union you described earlier

- with a common friend, Kashmir, in their middle.

Brother, Kashmir was an independent sovereign state. The Brits messed it up. I can�t tell you here, but I will PM you the secret why the Brits can�t stay without messing things up!

interesting brother Whisper!

someone comes and occupies the territory and it becomes their own!?

Kashmir was an independent state centuries before Yelderum appeared on the Indian scene. History of Kashmir pre-dates the Muslim arrival in the sub-continent and it was a much bigger state than quite a few others, at one point. It was a whole country.

muslims have been saying that your country, i.e., spain was a muslim country...  why would anyone say such a thing?  wasn't spain occupied by the muslims?

Some Muslims have to learn a few lessons, Spain was never �occupied� by just the Muslims. The Toledo Effect �Muslims, Christians and the Jews ran it jointly. Shall we say, almost, as it was the communities that ran India. The chap in the Lal Qilla was almost like a life President of this union.

Kashmir has every right to become an independent state.

brother, who would guarentee the well being of the hindus and buddhists there?

Bhai, that is a very interesting question.

The Buddhists, Hindus and the Muslims lived together in Kashmir for a long time.

Was it a problem before we violated the Kashmiris� basic right of self-determination?

P o l u t i c i a n s create problems and when people have �found� each other, they always get together to put p o l u t i c i a n s in their right place.

It�s a process.

It does take its time, but we must start from somewhere. If ever anything goes wrong, I will personally ask Javed Akhtar, Gulzar or Shabbana Azmi to fix it. You know, India is the only country in the world where people believe more in what Shah Rukh Khan or Aswiriya Rai says than even its Prime Minister!

hindus and buddhists were driven out of pakistan's kashmir and now you want the remaining also to be driven out and the rest of kashmir kept open for the occupation by china?

Nearly 10 million Muslims were driven out of India. Almost a million were killed. Why would anyone drive anyone out in a normal situation?

Is the present situation of turmoil more loveable?

We now live in the day of Human Rights and a few other sensitivities. The concept of lands and countries is becoming obsolete. We must strive to create comfy situations for all beings. India is a huge country, make peace with the Kashmiris and then send Aswiriya Rai there. See what happens1

But why should China wish to colonise Kashmir? Specially, when it holds the US to ransom?

" The negotiations have just been dragging the Kashmir issue since about the past 50 years, without any solution. People have been dying on both sides of the border. Have negotiations helped to calm the situation? No. The situation gets tense and worse day by day."

You are quite right.

Both the countries know very well that the third party {US} is in advantage and it does not want us to finalise something. 

The most interesting thing is that even a panwala in Dilli or a Lahori chatwala knows that, but somehow our �lidders� interests lie elsewhere!

You and me talk of numerous solutions and suppose even if we come to a final one its of no use. They enjoy blood shed at both the sides.

Brother, no one enjoys bloodshed. It�s just that the vested interests make huge profits in wars. We need to counter that through thorough informal education.

A pakistani family who visited our neighbours, said the same, that its the media which is fanning the hatred amongst both the countries.

Media survives with �Crown� patronage. Those in power supply its bread n butter. Let�s set up our own full time Peace Media. In this day and age we don�t really need huge printing presses to place anything in the public domain. We can start a small web based group, which is convinced that we have no better option than peace.

I remember, once I was at a conference. I propose peace between these two neighbours. It was a time of hot irons on the both sides. My suggestion was simple � let�s denounce arms on both the sides and IF we don�t find it more profitable for our people we can always get or laathis out and start bashing one n other!

That family had a school going boy who spent his time with us. Naturally we had a good bond of friendship. Before he left us we asked him, "When will u b back Khurram?" We all were awstruck by his answer. He said, " I will return India only as a soldier"

Poor Khurram! He didn�t know that there are far better things than soldiering in our world.

Teaching just as an example.

Am not blaming any country men but what i want to say is we achieved nothing except HATRED with those white collar meetings. And as "Mohammed" suggested war is the solution--------, But i feel no. It again spreads hatred for muslims in India.

I respect Mohammad. I hold him very dear, he is one the finest Kashmiris I have met in my years. What option has the great civilised community left him other than to believe that war is the only way out?

Its happening that during any of the blasts or even a small incidents occur, innocent muslims are put in jails naming then as "Terrorist". May be one amongst 50 is a wrong person but the rest 49 are put in jails with the same proofs and verifications. 

I should think, one out of 500 Indian Muslims would behave in any odd way.

Lets leave this issue for some more years and the coming generations will forget it. 

Yaar, you mean our Masters will let us forget bones of contention thrown by them?

"Being neighbours thodi bahoth khit- pit tho jayaz hai"

It may be jayez for some Amjad Khans, the Indians have been living in comfort with each other for a thousand years. If we shoot all lidders on both sides � the truth will come out that people are basically people and they want a bit of peace at the end of their day�s toil.

The Lidders keep the lid on this truth.

Also Hats Off to the knowledge of our member "Whisper" . Being from a different place he has got a very deep knowledge of India.

Thanks for your compliment, but India is the biggest reality in my street?

s666 wrote: Sign*Reader wrote: s666 wrote: hi everyone! i personally feel that it should be a part of india.  it is of course my personal opinion.  i feel so because kashmir has been a part of india for millennia and india does not give any preference to a particular religion.  this has been the trend all the time.  one cannot part it in the name of religion. If we use millennia time frame, it drops in Mahmud Ghazanvi's era, so it should be part of Afghanistan i did not say millenium, i said millenia. You:afghanistan was an indian territoty.  look at the history of afghanistan. Me: Not since the advent of Islam. And yes in the days of Mogul Emperor Aurangzeb, what does that prove?

1. A span of one thousand years.
2. A thousand-year period of holiness mentioned in Revelation 20, during which Jesus and his faithful followers are to rule on earth.
3. A hoped-for period of joy, serenity, prosperity, and justice.
4. A thousandth anniversary.

Sign*Reader wrote: Seems like you are beating about the bush, or trying to go all the way back to stone age of the subcontinent to make some point. Blurt it instead  of getting into  semantics.

Look at his "response" to my suggestion. This guy isn't interested in discussion. He's what we call a "troll": "a person who delights in sowing discord on the Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and upset people."

Good article on these idiots:

http://hometown.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm - http://hometown.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm

They're everywhere; it's why I almost never post on any forum anymore. But a lot of people here have good things to say, so I drop in to read

s666 wrote: skygazer wrote: Look at his "response" to my suggestion. This guy isn't interested in discussion. He's what we call a "troll": "a person who delights in sowing discord on the Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and upset people." "You're probably wondering why I'm here, And so am I, so am I."                       Frank Zappa they gel well for you... don't they?

"Just as much as you're wondering about me being in this place,
That's just how much I marvel at the lameness on your face."

Choke on that.

s666 wrote: let me show you something which i found http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6070744.stm - here . "For us, someone who goes on holiday to Pakistan several times raises questions," he told Reuters News Agency. so just be careful

militarisation of the poor subcontinent and fracturing Pakistan into military dictatorship rests to a greater extent on Indian's dirty politics of Hindutva and their ilk's shoulders. And you are a living proof of it

Hey Now stick with your BELOVED KASHMIR thread and while burning with hate look @

MASSACRE OF KASHMIRI SIKHS

There has been many instances of violation of guidelines in this thread. If you want the discussion to continue, go back and read the guidelines first, and comply, otherwise, the thread will be considered for closure.

There has been many instances of violation of guidelines in this thread. If you want the discussion to continue, go back and read the guidelines first, and comply, otherwise, the thread will be considered for closure.

Brother if our grand sub-continentals just knew how to behave with humans and each other instead of breast beating about dharti (land) they would not have made a mince meat out of one the most beautiful countries in the world.  

Hate to a particular person or community or a govt will bring nothing but disasters, killing.

Dear Raushan bibi or Raushan bhai,

I am waiting for you to also throw some of your limited edition raushani (light) on what does denying basic and fundamental rights to humans brings?

what you suggest abt the killing of taliban and balooch rebels by Islamic republics.

I have just come back after meeting a whole range of Afghan and Baluch sardars. Kindly, don�t shed any tears on our behalf. We know how to put some Bush or any Mush where they belong. Today, both are licking their wounds. The poor Brits are trying to blame anything for their plight.

Please just throw some raushani on why you don�t allow the poor, docile, noble featured artistic Kashmiris to decide how they wish to live?

Just please answer that question.

If you go hither and thither then be prepared with all the questions I hold for you not just about the Nagas, but a whole range of freedom movements going on right this very minute in India.

Sorry, you said something about Islamic Republic. Have you found one? Mail me their location, I will leave this afternoon.

mohammad wrote:   You pose a question about the future of Kashmir which is well known as  " Heaven of the Earth" but unfortunatley rightnow burning in the fire. In my opinion first of all India & Pakistan withdraw their armies then they give us right of selfdetermination where we can decide about our future. If we get the chance of right of self determination my vote will go in favor of an independent Kashmir.

I believe that kashmir should be independent

and Let the people there decide their own destiny

I believe that kashmir should be independent

and Let the people there decide their own destiny

This is the point for that we are fighting and more than hundred of thousand youngstars have been given their lif and thanks for your good wishes for our indenpendence.

I believe that kashmir should be independent and Let the people there decide their own destiny

Why should this loveable principle not apply to every person on our planet?