The topic says it all.

We know Christianiy is declining, but that applies to others as well. But who is to blame for it's decline?

superme wrote: The topic says it all. We know Christianiy is declining, but that applies to others as well. But who is to blame for it's decline?

Why does there need to be a blame, especially on someone??, I hate that!  

Society changes over time, civilation changes, peoples thoughts and the way they do things changes to, beliefs change also its not immune to it. With each generation there is something new to offer.

To be confined in a box is not what humans are made for, we need to explore we need to expand and grow and all that, if things don't change we don't evolve. 

No one is to blame, its a fact of life that things change, if it doesn't then things stagnat and die. Christianity isn't exactly dying its the way people believe that is changing, and with more studies on scriptures and what they mean, a more understanding comes to light and that changes to.

If christianity didn't change we would still probably be in the dark ages and getting burnt at the stake!  

Or believing in many gods still

I believe (just my opinion) that the liberal news media, vulgar Hollywood movies targeted at young adults, sexually explicit lyrics in many cd's, the lack of values being taught in the home,  so many people not being family oriented, and people living only for today, for instant gratification, with little or no thought about their futures, much less their salvation and the afterlife are the causes of the decline in Christianity.

For these reasons I do not go to movies because I will not compromise my beliefs by paying good money which goes to these immoral filmmakers in Hollywood....or the actors/actresses.  It is very sad that so many have become interested only in material things of this world, which are very fleeting and shallow in the grand scheme of things.  I feel many persons do not have their priorities straight or as they really should be.  Their first priority should be to God, then to family, and to friends.  They need to work at making a real home for their children...even if it means going without some of the "material things" we seem to think we have "just got to have."  I live a very simple life in a small, but quite cozy, cottage in the woods.  My husband and I do not care for large parties, big nights out on the town, new cars every year, etc., etc.  We are deeply in love after many years, we love our family members and our friends, and we worship God the very best we know how.  We try deligently to please him and to ask forgiveness from Him, and from those we may have hurt or harmed in any way.  And, one thing we will never do is go to sleep angry at each other!  We always remember to hug and kiss goodnight, no matter what argument we may have had at some point during the day.

I don't know if I will have another tomorrow, or if my beloved husband, relatives, or friends will....so we do try to be very kind and loving.  If we could bring these values back into the families and homelife, and stop focusing so intensely on material and vulgar or sinful preoccupations, I believe those who have lost their faith would gradually return to find it.

May God/Allah bless you....

superme,

There are a variety of factors in the decline of any faith.  I'm with Patty on the Hollywood influence.  Values are pushed, alternative lifestyles, even religions. You know that Madonna practices Kabbalah, Tom Cruise Scientology, Mia Farrow is Buddhist I think...they make these faiths look "cool" to youngsters. 

The second is families no longer have a focus on faith, being too religious is something to be suspicious of and to avoid.  The focus on secularization is bleeding from government to society at large.  With Multicuturalism, children are given options and educations in other faiths and cultures.

Then there is another one that I feel is the most destructive element.  Hypocrisy.  Churches are leaving behind traditional values and the teachings of the bible.  They are accepting homosexual bishops, not punishing adulterers and remaining silent on couples living in sin.  Churches that do still punish are considered harsh and controlling.  I believe in repentence like the next person, but you have to be willing to give up the sin for it to work.

My husband was very nearly excommunicated for us living together prior to our marriage.  The only thing that saved him was the fact that we had realized we were in the wrong, we married right away and we were honestly repentent of that fact.  Many other "Protestant" churches would have said nothing.  The Eastern Orthodox Church refused to marry us for two reason, he was not Orthodox (not even if he'd been another accepted Christian faith) and we were living in sin.  Thus we had a civil marriage.  I respect the Eastern Church and the Mormons for their dedication to their teachings.  Christianity as a whole seems to be losing this dedication even if some churches, like the Catholic Church, Orthodox and Mormon churches are holding onto the old fashioned values.

Whatever happened with the men here, are they around?

Ok actually I started that topic because this too:

And were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilisation of modern Europe might fall [to Islam], as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome [to Christianity].

According to him Christianity was as though on the verge of collapse, but the sciece which the Christianity opposed in the past was the one that preventing the collapse. According to him Islam is the substitute of Christianity, but in Europe only though. Than he made the example the fall of Rome.

Yet Rome with it's science "fell" to Christianity, a religion which according to him is the opposite of science. Is your understanding the same I do? I think he was wrong here.

Than again why did he say that the survival of Christianity depend on science here?

I am trying to understand the whole thing just by reading 4 lines mind you!  That's why I ask you what or who is responsible. Alright I'll be back, maybe.

Very good post, David.

Peace be with you....

Hmm I have to say, knowing many people who were rasied "Christian" and who left Ithink it has to do with the fact that people are more exposed to ideas and as a soceity with more access to information, less likely to take things on the basic idea of "just believe."  When people look for answers about their existence they have problems with some of the basic tenants of Christianity.

Plus there is a complete de-emphasizing of generla spirituality in our world. People see so many wars, killing of environment, cruelty and find that answers are lacking.. Then they say where is the merciful God?

Today I say a picture of a babty elephant in Thailand with its foot blown off from a landmind and it makes you feel there is no justice here.. none at all.. just suffering....

Plus you meet one of those people (like my aunt) who tells people they  aregoing to hell if you don't believe what she believes and you want no part of that.

This Easter of April 2006, 200,000 new Catholics were received into the Church.  Just in the US alone.

Btw, Hayfa, I saw the article about the four year old elephants today myself (in the National Geographic).  It told how they taken the babies away from their mothers and put them in a small cage, where they are beaten, starved, sleep deprived.  All this to "domestic" them so they can be used for rides for tourists.  I was furious when I read about this and saw the pictures.  Then if the little elephant fails to perform as he/she is told, he/she is stabbed with a sharp bamboo stick!  This was in Thailand, but the article said it happens all over in many countries.  Being an animal lover, this REALLY saddned me, and I love elephants because they are so loving among themselves and are also so intelligent.  How can people be so cruel???

Peace to you always.....

DavidC wrote: I don't quite get your point, Supreme.  Rome was at it's apex when the Constantine took over.  The "fall" of the Roman Empire happened while Rome was Christian many years later. Science did not come about until centuries later. And I don't think Christianity is dying at all. Changing and evolving, but not dying.  Europe's old churches seem to have a problem, but elsewhere in the world Christianity is on the upswing.

Dave, I can't afford to read the Roman history to know this. I believe that the Roman was scientifically advance compared with the surrounding civilizations considering they the one who started the pave road.

Now what I must believe, do I need to believe that the fall of Rome caused by christianity, or the era of Rome was prolonged by the arrival of Christianity? I don't know.

But one thing is sure Dave, I have few month old game called "Roman Total War" in which I was defeated over and over and over by almost every side that I laid my hands on  no kidding!!, so I uninstalled it and play solitaire instead.

Alright, just a little smile for this grumpy section.

Evangelicals are killing Christianity!

It's an excuse to say Hollywood is because people have the choice to involve thgemselves in seeing movies or what not. But Evangelicals are in the churches where most people are mostly influenced. They are also in the streets and in the homes more so than your average movie flick. They are in countries with poverty. Although these things sound like good things I have heard of some where they only give food or give baths only if the people convert. This was actually a case in Iraq where only soldiers who would take communion could get a nice shower and cold water.

Israfil, your first sentence says it all.  I am not an evangelical, but I am quite certain THEY are not killing Christianity.  In fact, Christianity is not dying at all....just as David said.

You don't have to approve of, like, or believe anything an evangelical says, but to state they are killing Christianity is ludicrous.  They are deeply devoted to Jesus.  However, they DO NOT force anyone to do anything against their will....that would be very much against their beliefs. 

I am Catholic.  We are the ones who believe so strongly in Holy Communion.....more so than any other church, as we believe that Jesus is completely present in the eucharist....body, blood, soul, and divinity--through transubstantiation when the priest consecrates the "communion wafer", i.e., the Eucharist.  We do not force anyone to take communion.  In fact, unless an individual has gone through a long duration of studying the Catholic faith, and has received the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation, they are PROHIBITED from receiving Holy Communion in a Catholic Church.

Peace to you.

Evangelicals, I just want to run in the opposite direction when I see them

Have you ever watched the evangelicals on tv with the volume down, (we have few here in the earlier mornings and of course they are americans), look at their expression, not a nice one, all these frowning, finger pointing, walking up and down the stage, they look mean, omg God.

Israfil wrote: Although these things sound like good things I have heard of some where they only give food or give baths only if the people convert. This was actually a case in Iraq where only soldiers who would take communion could get a nice shower and cold water.

omg

(we have few here in the earlier mornings and of course they are americans)

We bloody yanks are ridiculous ;)

eliyahu,

Greetings and welcome.

"Now that I have children, I will not watch most of those programs because of their sharp contrast with the faith of the new testament. It is so much show and glam, etc. I won't ridicule those people, but I can live the rest of my life without hearing shallow sermons and calls for money. Jesus isn't a showman."

Absolutely correct observation.

I think the Televangelists and the Cybervangelists are causing the maximum damage to Christianity.

I don't know if it is correct but I have heard that one cannot change or switch to another church, in the same city or town, if one wishes to. The local "Fathers" don't allow that. Is that true?

I have to agree with brother Israfil when he says (edited a li'l bit):

"evangelicals are everywhere and they are perhaps the most
profound sources of gospel preaching. But I have experienced so-
called Christianity first hand, not only growing up in the
Christian faith but as a both a Christian and as a Muslim.
Evangelical christianity is nothing more than extreme literalist
who believe that they must preach the "Word of God" but in the
same breath, condemn others to hellfire. These people are no
better than Islamic extremist who preach and twist holy words
for their own gain. "

That is a valid observation.

Israfil, you think too much and you think well.

Angela: Keep on running. I do the same. There is no other choice. My evangelist friends upstairs would not let me go away and they have a ladies group who are taking my wife to church lunches every Tuesday to bring her closer to the Lord.

However, she has started telling the ladies what the Qur'aan says and the ladies are taking a great interest in listening to what the Muslim Yahweh says. 

This is a reply to bmzsp,

     This is about your Q about Christians not being allowed by the local "fathers" to change churches. While some church leaders, for various reasons (some reasonable and some not), would try to disuade members of their congregation from changing churches, it is not something that most leaders could do anything to forcefully prevent a member from leaving. Back in the days of the Catholic Church's power, to leave the "church" usually meant torture, execution, persecution, shame, etc.  In today's world, many leaders often resort to business styled, commercial agendas to keep people and money coming in. This is called being "seeker sensitive." But there is a large, yet scattered and a small percent, of Christians who do not embrace "seeker sensitive" programs to draw people in or other more "traditional" forms of the faith, like formal, tightly structured services, "official" leaders occupying leadership positions that must be filled by  "professionals," and a number of popular teachings like tithing money, the pre-tribulation rapture of the Chrisians (Jesus secretly snatching away all the true believers and then the end of the world begins to unfold- like the popular "Left Behind" fiction novels), insisting on large, impressive buildings to meet in, fancy and official names of the congregation or denomination (version) of the faith they embrace, etc.

     I would also like to add as a side comment that, although I believe that the situations Israel is involved with since 1948 are a part of God's plan, I also grieve over the death and destruction Israel causes on others while trying to defend itself. I am broken in my heart over both Israeli and "Palestianian," Lebonese, etc. casualties and suffering, no matter who  is really at fault or not. All of it is a great trajedy. The land is indeed called "God's land" in the Bible. He also is clear and repetative that there is a designated area, of which Israel currently exists in a small part of it, which God calls His "promised land." He promised to give it to Jews at some point. However, many Christians are ignorant or intimidated by the fact that these promises were given a historical context of when God would give the land to Israel. It would be after a thorough purging of the Jewish people, after a great time of unpresidented calamity for Jews and all who identify with them as God's chosen people, after many of those still alive finally repent and embrace Jesus as their messiah and saviour. After all these things Jesus is to return and destroy the, still attacking,  enemies of Israel (whoever they are) and establish a universal kingdom of peace and true knowledge of God, effectively turning this world right side up. The current state of Israel is not that kingdom at all. It is a part of God's working through history which will one day be "crucified" like their true King, and then lie virtually "dead" and overwhelmed for a season. Then, will God send Jesus back and "resurrect" the Jewish people and their broken state back from hopelessness and near genocide. Israel will be totoally reborn in His way, fulfilling His intentions for them as a people to be a true "light to the nations" and be his Spiritual "sons." That is when the Surviving, Jews with new hearts will inherit the promised land in security and peace, without any disputers left, and without Jews forcibly taking anything unjustly. All the world will bow down to God and learn His ways of peace and righteousness, finally . No more Jihad, no more six day wars or occupations, no more war on terror, no more anti-Semitism or hate of any kind in anyone. There is so much more to this, but I hope that this is something for you to consider. This is part of what the apostle Paul and the prophet Jeremiah called "the hope of Israel."

     Anyhow, that is my snippet of what is called "eschatology" (knowledge of the final things). I hope it adds to your understanding of Christianity a little more.

eliyahu1,

Thanks for the response.

Leaving the eschatology aside  , there is one point I would like to make clear. Qur'aan does confirm that the Jews were brought in the Holy Lands by Moses upon God's instructions. Thus the Jews were given part of certain lands within the Holy lands.

Even Muslims cannot deny that as Qur'aan states that clearly.

BMZ

bmzsp,

     I was not aware of that about the Qur'aan's teachings about that. Where does it say that (I have an English copy)? Do the Hadith state anything about that? Also, my understanding is that many Muslims believe that once a geographic area is ruled by Islam, it must remain under Islam's rule forever and is "holy" in that respect. This is part of the reason for the desire of many to uproot and/or destroy the nation of Israel in its location which was once ruled by the religion of Islam. That land is forever banned from the rule of any other religion or people other than the "house of peace" which is Islam. Is that true?

Is there any teaching which clarifies which specific land(s) are counted as set apart for the Jews or "holy" for some reason? What makes the land "holy?" Do some Muslims still deny that certain lands were or are given to Jews by God in the middle east in spite of the Qur'aan?

Maryah,

David said it so well.   Fortunately our Tabligh preachers are not too much into television.

eliyahu1,

From you: "I was not aware of that about the Qur'aan's teachings about that. Where does it say that (I have an English copy)? Do the Hadith state anything about that?"

Please read Verses 22 to 26 of Surah 5 AlMaedah (The Table) Verse 21 is the verse that you are looking for. While you are at it, please read Verse 17 also.  We don't have to look for any hadith as Qur'aan is already specific and clear.

From you: "Also, my understanding is that many Muslims believe that once a geographic area is ruled by Islam, it must remain under Islam's rule forever and is "holy" in that respect."

I don't agree with that as Muslims have not put any claims for India and Spain.  

From you: "This is part of the reason for the desire of many to uproot and/or destroy the nation of Israel in its location which was once ruled by the religion of Islam. That land is forever banned from the rule of any other religion or people other than the "house of peace" which is Islam. Is that true?"

The Jews lived for centuries in that land with Muslims. The modern nation of Israel is destroying itself like a lemming, in my humble opinion. It is not a religious issue but a political one. If one wants to live in peace, one should also let others live in in peace and respect  their life, rights and ownership of properties. You have already seen the respect of life shown by Israel when  for two men it has killed over four hundred innocent civilians.

How the Jews were treated in non-Muslim lands is well-known. You can look at other "houses of love and peace" and their records are not admirable at all. I will leave the politics out here.

From you: "Is there any teaching which clarifies which specific land(s) are counted as set apart for the Jews or "holy" for some reason? What makes the land "holy?" Do some Muslims still deny that certain lands were or are given to Jews by God in the middle east in spite of the Qur'aan?"

No, there is no such teaching. The teaching is already evident by what I quoted above. Muslims are angry at the land grab by Israel, do you approve of it?

Have you read that short fable "The Arab and the Camel"?  It fits Israel very well.

bmzsp,

     Thanks for the information. I will look up those places in the Qur'aan. I would like to read about the fable you mentioned. Is there a link or something that may have it? As for the question about the land grab, I am not clear as to what specifically you are reffering to. Do you mean the entire state of Israel's land or certain parts which they reside in or claim?

eliyahu,

The Arab & the Camel

It was a story that I read when I was a child. The story goes something like this in my own words, from recollection:

An Arab makes a stop in the desert. It is chilling cold in the winter night and he erects a tent for himself. After a while his camel pushes his face into the tent and tells the Arab that his mouth and nose feel cold and if he could keep his face in the tent, to keep it warm. The Arab agrees.

A little while later, the camel complains that his neck is feeling numb from the cold and if he could keep the neck in the tent. The Arab agrees and moves to the tent corner.

A little while later, the camel complains that his forelegs are feeling the cold and if he could put the legs in the tent. The Arab, being too kind, accomodates his request and further squeezes himself in the corner.

A little later, the camel complains that his backbody is almost freezing. The Arab understands and agrees to the camel's request and as the camel takes up the entire tent, out goes the Arab from the tent.  Now you know who the camel is?   

bmz asked:

"I don't know if it is correct but I have heard that one cannot change or switch to another church, in the same city or town, if one wishes to. The local "Fathers" don't allow that. Is that true?"

Of course this is not true.  Not in America, and not in Catholicism or Christianity or both.  It deeply saddens me that you would even consider believing such trash.

As a Catholic I begun quite dismayed at the "myths" (I'm being polite here), or the "let's relive the Inquisition" mindset.  We are living in the here and now, and the Catholic Church is one of the, if not THE, greatest promoters of peace and love toward ALL human beings to be found.  Just this past weekend Pope Benedict set it aside as a time of prayer for peace throughout the Middle East.  Here is an excerpt from the prayers we offered up for those suffering in the Middle East.  We devoted much time praying for peace:

Pope declares day of prayer for Mideast peace ^{http://www.cwnews.com/news/rss/index.cfm">}

Patty,

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about the Catholic Church or Pope at all.

I have heard that people belonging to a local church in any US city or it's suburbs must remain members of the church they visit. The local priests do not like their church members poached by other nearby churches.

Perhaps, you are not aware of this. For example, I can go to nay mosque and offer my prayers, while Christians belonging to a certain church in their neighbourhood will only go to their local pastor's church.

How is dear Dad? May God ease his pain and suffering. Ameen.

Dear BMZ,

My beloved Father died on July 8.  I am heartbroken....I am happy he is no longer suffering, and I know he is with Christ, but I'm crying because I miss him so much.

See "Muslim Funeral" on Page 2 of this topic.

Thank you for asking.

Salam Alaikoam Patty sorry to hear about the passing of your father.  I lost mine when I was 11 and could not cry for the loss for ten years after that.

People may be going to church less but then all religions are experiencing a decline of attendence.

Salam

Anne Marie