I don't know why you brought this topic up - are you trying to push the line that women are weak and evil and stupid? Because the very same topic can be turned around to provbe the same thing about men.

No, just matter of factly.

By the way, I don't accept man betrays his wife/group by having sex outside marriage/group, unlike women. Sex is not just a biological activity, at least in human beings it is used to convey the message of living together. Unless incest is allowed, one of them has to leave the original home to live with the other partner. In almost all the societies, women move to the house of their spouses (and not the man). And a woman cannot possibly live in more than one house at the same time, thus she cannot promise more than one man of living together with him. 

A man can only betray his wife, if he refuses to provide for her or protect her, even though he can do so.

?????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!

Are you saying a man can sleep around but a woman mustn't?

Are you saying a man can sleep around but a woman mustn't?

No, not at all. If a man has sex outside marriage, at worst, he can be deceiving another man, but not his own wife. I was justifying polygamy.

Looks like you dont have a sister or any female family member who you could be close with to the level of friendship. This could be one of the reason for your various posts against women.

ZamanH wrote: By the way, I don't accept man betrays his wife/group by having sex outside marriage/group, unlike women.

Very  immature to say the least. Are u talking in regards to Muslim societies, or people in general? Or are u generalizing over a small group of people you have known?

In most of the muslims households, women do not go out unescorted. They do not let 'men' enter their homes when they are alone ... They have less chances of cheating than men ( and am not saying, men are given to cheating, just that your proportionality analysis is wrong).

ZamanH wrote: Sex is not just a biological activity, at least in human beings it is used to convey the message of living together.

Come to the west! People prefer freedom to sharing.

Further, perhaps u have not heard of 'one night stands'?  

ZamanH wrote: Unless incest is allowed, one of them has to leave the original home to live with the other partner. In almost all the societies, women move to the house of their spouses (and not the man).

Now this is confusing. If two ppl were having an affair, two ppl were cheating on two other, how can u blame the woman alone?

ZamanH wrote: A man can only betray his wife, if he refuses to provide for her or protect her, even though he can do so.

A man betrays his wife when he looks at other women ... the prophet(saw) has said, if you look at other women, then go to your wife, she has all what this one has.

ZamanH wrote: If a man has sex outside marriage, at worst, he can be deceiving another man, but not his own wife.

If he brings AIDS he is risking her life, and that amounts to deceiving and more ....

Polygamy cannot be justified by adultery.

Nausheen wrote:   ZamanH wrote: By the way, I don't accept man betrays his wife/group by having sex outside marriage/group, unlike women. Very  immature to say the least. Are u talking in regards to Muslim societies, or people in general? Or are u generalizing over a small group of people you have known?

People in general.

Nausheen wrote: In most of the muslims households, women do not go out unescorted. They do not let 'men' enter their homes when they are alone ... They have less chances of cheating than men ( and am not saying, men are given to cheating, just that your proportionality analysis is wrong).

Admittedly, in most societies more men have sex outside marriage compared to women. My point was, according to the article I have provided link to, more women have sex outside marriage than is generally thought (that is not my assessment, its the articles')

Nausheen wrote: ZamanH wrote: Sex is not just a biological activity, at least in human beings it is used to convey the message of living together. Come to the west! People prefer freedom to sharing. Further, perhaps u have not heard of 'one night stands'?

My point was, minds of human beings are hardwired to think like that (that is the sense of belonging, love, etc and the pledge of living together) at the time of intercourse. I was talking about instincts. That gives people pleasure and satisfaction. Adulterers flirt with those "emotional messages" out of lust. And that is wrong. 

Nausheen wrote: ZamanH wrote: Unless incest is allowed, one of them has to leave the original home to live with the other partner. In almost all the societies, women move to the house of their spouses (and not the man). Now this is confusing. If two ppl were having an affair, two ppl were cheating on two other, how can u blame the woman alone?

Your point is irrelevant to the text you have quoted from my earlier post. What I had said there in the quoted text is a undeniable fact and not even an opinion.

Nausheen wrote: ZamanH wrote: A man can only betray his wife, if he refuses to provide for her or protect her, even though he can do so. A man betrays his wife when he looks at other women ... the prophet(saw) has said, if you look at other women, then go to your wife, she has all what this one has.

Did the Prophet  specifically said that he betrays his wife?? From what you have said, that is not apparent.

Nausheen wrote: ZamanH wrote: If a man has sex outside marriage, at worst, he can be deceiving another man, but not his own wife. If he brings AIDS he is risking her life, and that amounts to deceiving and more ....

Yes, I agree, that is a valid point. My point was, assuming there is no AIDS or STDs etc. man cannot betray his wife just by having sex outside marriage, while the same is not true about women.

Nausheen wrote: Polygamy cannot be justified by adultery.

I WAS NOT JUSTIFYING ADULTERY.Dammit.A man who commits adultery IS certainly wrong. The entire arguement is over the reason as to  WHY is he wrong. My point is, he is wrong because he decieves father/husband/family of the woman he commits adultery with,only. But he certainly does not betrays his wife by doing that.

Although, Prophet did warn women about adultery, while explaining to them their duties to their husbands, in his Last Sermon; he was notably silent about it while highlighting the duties of men towards their wives. If  a man really betrays his wife at all by having sex with another woman (that I believe is a modern western concept), it certainly won't have been permitted in Islam for men to have more than one wife or to have intercourse with female slaves.

Jenni wrote: And most men who cheat don't simply marry another woman, they sleep with another woman outside of marraige or solicit prostitutes which is popular in India.

I have been living in India all my life and I didn't know that.

Though, it is certainly not more popular here than it is elsewhere (though it might be slightly more than it is in Islamic countries).

ZamanH first and foremost As'Salaamu Alaikum Wa' Rahmatullahi Wa' Barakatuh!

Before  I began to criticize what your title heading pre-suppose and your remarks underlining your belief I wanted to read over your statements as well as your responses. From what you say the thing that stands out in this subject is that when a man cheats it is unlike the woman. Perhaps you may have made this statement in the general sense and in the sense of intensity. What I mean is, as you have said before that the effects of cheating when it comes to men are less intense then that of a woman. You mention that when a man cheats at best it hurts the other man. but if a woman cheats it at best hurts both the man and the woman as well as the cheater.

ZamanH I will give you the best advice I can give: Read the Qur'an and carefully study its spiritual principle behind marriage. Of course you should know that cheating is prohibited. For the purpose of this subject I will not too much refer to religion as much as strictly adhere to the statements made here. When a man cheats and is Muslim and is married he is transgressing from God's law. Transgression of God's law regardless of the intensities is the same because such sinful acts break God's covenant to man in Islam.

In the words of one of the world's greatess human beings Buddha once said "life is suffering." What that means is that to live is not to physically suffer but to suffer is to desire. Such desires exist as natural and unnatural. In this case to desire another man while being married is a type of desire that is suffering. To cure this is to be mindful of Allah and his promise. As Nausheen puts it in her last post the prophet has said that a good Muslim is one who is good to his wife. The whole point of Islam is to mirror the Creator: To be one and absolute as a unified body. Why do you think the sustaining of kinsfolk is so important? Why do you think marriage is important?

When we mention polygamy we have to look at its historical context because at that time polygamy was used as political means to bridge ties to other tribes. Even kings from different nations would marry the daughters of other kings from other nations while still married to their previous spouse. Because we live in modern times it is best to conform to monogamy because society has intellectually evolved into a more traditional family: one man, one woman. God even says in the Qur'an that it is best to stay with one woman and only uses polygamy as an additional option but in no way God puts polygamy before monogamy in the Qur'an. It is not only hypocritical of a man to say the intensity of chaeating is lesser than that of a woman but its not in accordance to Islamic teaching.

I can remember a time where a Muslimah told me she loved me and later called me one night and told me: "While I was with you I was also planning my marriage." Of course it hurt me but it greatlky hurts her because she has made an oath to God to have desire for her husband and no other and she violated that. As Allah as mentioned in his precious book that all who do sin and not reflect sincerely on what they've done she get a recourse of what they've done.

Walai Kum As Salaam,

From what you say the thing that stands out in this subject is that when a man cheats it is unlike the woman.

Yes, that is because men and women are different and their desires and responsibilities are different. I will even say they can cheat each other only in totally different manners.

but if a woman cheats it at best hurts both the man and the woman as well as the cheater.

I am not sure about the cheater part. I don't know, perhaps because I am not a cheater :D.

When a man cheats and is Muslim and is married he is transgressing from God's law.

Yeah, I agree. Muslim should not need any "justification" for following any of the religious laws. I was answering to KIM. She had posted something about the subject, somewhere. I forgot where she had posted it, therefore I posted my opinion about it here (when she replied to my first post in this thread). I gave a secular justification of polygamy.

In the words of one of the world's greatess human beings Buddha

He was not great. He was a Kaafir. He taught about foregoing all of the desires. He preached celibacy etc. That is unislamic. Overall, I think people who renounce all the desires of life to be pretending to be great, while they are only simply weak-hearted to face life.

Why do you think the sustaining of kinsfolk is so important? Why do you think marriage is important?

That is to worship Allah. and Allah gave us emotions to help us worship Him. Our emotions are not end in themselves, they are only means.

Because we live in modern times it is best to conform to monogamy because society has intellectually evolved into a more traditional family:

I don't think people have intellectually "evolved". They have become more godless. World Wars were fought in the modern era. In the Cold War, both the "great" superpowers threaten to destroy all of the humanity (that cannot be denied, because they actively deployed their missiles to do it).In my country, I see most of the people who have adopted Western culture, care less about their parents and prefer to live in nuclear families. Look at the standard of the movies in the West, now. Now, they are openly showing nude/sex scenes. Even 30 years back, I think, that was unthinkable. The Western civilization is certainly in downswirl (ofcourse, no society is perfect, but West is certainly degrading very fast).

It is not only hypocritical of a man to say the intensity of chaeating is lesser than that of a woman but its not in accordance to Islamic teaching.

I accept, monogamy is better compared to polygamy. But what quality do you think I am simulating to be called a hypocrite (by the way)??!!! As far as I know, equating adultery by husband to that by a wife is a modern Western concept (that has nothing to do with Islam).

I can remember a time where a Muslimah told me she loved me and later called me one night and told me: "While I was with you I was also planning my marriage."

But she wasn't married to you.

Zamanh don't you think that when you marry a woman you are signing a contract to be commited to her?

If I marry  a woman I will promise to take care for her and to be always with her, both in her joys and sorrows and not to leave her (of course, as long as she is married to me). I don't accept I will be leaving her if I marry (though I won't do it) another woman because husbands don't leave their homes after their marriage (while women do). My second wife will be coming to my home, I won't be going to her house.

Do you really respect women?

That depends on what do you mean by respect. If respecting (and loving) them means feeding and clothing them and not hurting them physically and  mentally(at least, not intentiontionaly), I do respect them.

I don't accept marrying another woman or, even committing adultery means disrespecting the first wife.

it seems to me you like the Hadith there will be more women in hell than men

Its not that it "appeals" to me. My signature is not for giving me  satisfaction but to warn others. Women are sensitive and as I had said earlier in this forum, to be good requires one to be insensitive to ones own inconveniences to alleviate the greater sufferings of others.

Assalaualaikum Zaman,

First of all, you have said in one of your posts that you were justifying adultry, and then you go on to say that u were not ... confusing. I dont have time to uote everything, so this will be short and quick, pls excuse me for the haste.

You say, whne a man cheats he cheats only the other man (by soliciting a relationship with his wife), and in course he does not cheat his wife. This is not comprehensible. marriage is not just a contract on paper, it binds two ppl emotionally and spiritually. The love, the trust, the sharing that exists between two people, is mercilessly massacred in a cheating. There may not be a material harm to the wife, whose husband is cheating on her, but it does damage the bond.

The trust is lost. The woman may loose her self confidence, the joy and pleasure she takes in living and making his house .... and you are trying to say this is not cheating, not harm? or that it is a lesser harm?

Can you explain why  is the harm less? And why is the other man harmed more? Is it because his ego, his respect in the society marred when his wife is cheating on him? Is it not same for the woman whose man is cheating on her?

You said prophet(SAW) did not say much about men treating their wives in his last sermon. I suggest you read the last sermon. He said the best of you is one who treats his wife best. And he said you must treat your wives with kindness. Cheating is not the best treatment and it is no where even close to kindness.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen

But she wasn't married to you.

Wow bro you have no intellectual capacity to understand transgression...This is scary

By the Way as sister Nausheen mentions when you justify infidelity and retack what you say later that is not only being hypocritical but contradictory...Oh BTW I like the comment about equating cheating equal between a man and a woman as a "Western concept" and is unislamic. Unfortunately yor mindset is not Islamic in this case because Allah says in the Qur'an that all sin (save Shirk) is repentable hence all are equal since sin is a transgression of God's law. So if a man cheats the intensity of his sin is as great as a woman who sins.

BTW that little comment I posted earlier I also would like to add that if an engaged woman is also engaged to another man (two men mind you) she is committing adultry. Like I said its scary you can't tell the difference between transgression and fidelity. Scary

ZamanH wrote: Are you saying a man can sleep around but a woman mustn't? No, not at all. If a man has sex outside marriage, at worst, he can be deceiving another man, but not his own wife. I was justifying polygamy.

ZamanH wrote: I WAS NOT JUSTIFYING ADULTERY.Dammit.A man who commits adultery IS certainly wrong. The entire arguement is over the reason as to  WHY is he wrong. My point is, he is wrong because he decieves father/husband/family of the woman he commits adultery with,only. But he certainly does not betrays his wife by doing that.

I need to correct myself, you were indeed trying to justify "polygamy", not adultery.  but I dont understand how, where it looks like you are justifying the act of adultery.

can you please explain further, how you can justify polygamy,  in respect to a man who is actually "deceiving" a family?

Polygamy is not deciet. In fact the very idea of polygamy is to avoid so many other social evils which come into picture when there are relationships outside marriage, rather than within marriage.

The man who is commiting adultery is not only deceiving the father/husband of the woman, he is aslo deceiving his own wife and children. Why do u not want to consider the deciet in his own home as a crime?

Maa salaama,

Nausheen

Israfil wrote: Oh BTW I like the comment about equating cheating equal between a man and a woman as a "Western concept" and is unislamic.

Nausheen wrote: Can you explain why  is the harm less? And why is the other man harmed more? Is it because his ego, his respect in the society marred when his wife is cheating on him? Is it not same for the woman whose man is cheating on her?

As I had earlier said, intercourse also means pledge of living together(irrespective of the partners following it or not). And also, women leave their earlier home to live with their mate. If a married woman has sex outside marriage, she is promising the other man too, of living with him (and of going to his house). This, I consider to be cheating because she had earlier promised her husband of living with him and staying in his house (and because she cannot possibly stay in the two houses at the same time).

If a man commits adultery, he does not promise to goto the house of the  woman with whom he has commited adultery (and thus leave his wife). I don't see how is he cheating his wife (though, he is cheating another man).

Nausheen wrote: but I dont understand how, where it looks like you are justifying the act of adultery.

You might have got that impression because I have been saying wife of the man is not betrayed by him if he had sex with another woman (and the reverse is true). This, I saw as the first step towards justifying polygamy to  non-muslims (of course, there are other reasons too, like men crave more for sex compared to women etc., but I thought this was the main reason).

ZamanH wrote: Israfil wrote: Oh BTW I like the comment about equating cheating equal between a man and a woman as a "Western concept" and is unislamic. Ok, that was a mistake. Equating the hurt, which either of them (man/woman) receives when their spouse cheats them is a modern western concept (that is not realated to Islam).

What???? I'm sorry - I'm either losing my English language abilities, or you are implying that men and women are only treated equally and only have equal feelings because of the West.

Could you PLEASE explain what the above means? I am really, very, extremely confused.

Kim...

ZamanH wrote:   As I had earlier said, intercourse also means pledge of living together(irrespective of the partners following it or not). And also, women leave their earlier home to live with their mate. If a married woman has sex outside marriage, she is promising the other man too, of living with him (and of going to his house). This, I consider to be cheating because she had earlier promised her husband of living with him and staying in his house (and because she cannot possibly stay in the two houses at the same time). If a man commits adultery, he does not promise to goto the house of the  woman with whom he has commited adultery (and thus leave his wife). I don't see how is he cheating his wife (though, he is cheating another man).

HE IS CHEATING!!! You just said he was committing adultery - this is CHEATING.

PLease - NEVER get married. You are obviously NOT to be trusted.

Your "man" (read: spineless jellyfish) in the above example is not "cheating" according to you, so you obviously think he should not be punished. But how muhc punishment would the woman get? Beatings? Lashings? torture? imprisonment? Death?

If your man can sleep around - who will he sleep with? Sheep? Goats? No - WOMEN. If your "man" can cheat - so can women.

Hypocrites.

No wonder so many people can't be bothered reverting - why would they. The overriding, overwhelming view of all of this is that men are superior, men can sleep around, men can murder...and women can do dishes, pump out babies and be tortured.

You make me sick.

Kim...

Kim states:

Hypocrites.

No wonder so many people can't be bothered reverting - why would they. The overriding, overwhelming view of all of this is that men are superior, men can sleep around, men can murder...and women can do dishes, pump out babies and be tortured.

You make me sick.

Kim...

I have to say Kim that I'm quite surprised at your reaction to this persons belief on this subject matter. I understand frustration but you being a member here you should understand that not everybody thinks the same way. If you were cautious enough to read my earlier responses you wouldn't be so quick to categorize us so-called "reverts" in one big box. It appears your knowledge of Islam is slightly distorted and I would suggest that you seek our more text or personal discussions with a Muslim in your area the knowledge of Islam because it appears that you have much to learn about Islam....Yes I'm slightly attacking you because I highly take offense to those categorizing all Muslims and using statements as "reverts being reluctant to revert to Islam."

ZAMAN you said:

"Ok, that was a mistake. Equating the hurt, which either of them (man/woman) receives when their spouse cheats them is a modern western concept (that is not realated to Islam)."

This would be really funny if you were some guy living in Michigan behind a computer because if you are, I would suggest leaving America if you feel the U.S is so immoral. Now back to what I was going to say. Again you and your terms are really confusing. You also mentioned:

"As I had earlier said, intercourse also means pledge of living together(irrespective of the partners following it or not). And also, women leave their earlier home to live with their mate. If a married woman has sex outside marriage, she is promising the other man too, of living with him (and of going to his house). This, I consider to be cheating because she had earlier promised her husband of living with him and staying in his house (and because she cannot possibly stay in the two houses at the same time).

If a man commits adultery, he does not promise to goto the house of the woman with whom he has commited adultery (and thus leave his wife). I don't see how is he cheating his wife (though, he is cheating another man)."

Apparently you are giving rise to new terminology on marital infidelity because in our country America, when a woman sleeps around she is not symbolically telling the guy she wants to live with him. Here in America there is a thing called "Booty Calls" where a man/woman sleeps with their partner for the purpose of "causual sex." Even if the party is engaged or married they sleep with another person for the purpose of fulfilling their sexual appetite. Just because a woman cheats doesn't mean she really says "Since we had sex let me move in and be your wife." Because first off if she is making a marital commitment to another man other than her husband she couldn't execute such an act incognito, becaue her husband would find out.

If a man does this the same rules applies he is simply: CHEATING. When I say the act is equal i mean just that. If a man cheats the guilty act is as equal as the womans. There are no discrepancies between the two nor does one symbolize the other, well at least here. Perhaps in the Mid East if a man sleeps around its not cheating and if that is the case its not Islamic but sexist. I agree with Sister Nausheen on the question of whether you had any female influence in your life. I wonder if you have the same impression on your mother like you do women here.  Do you believe the woman who bore you is a product of how you think? Or is she the exception? If she is the exception then how is she different than the women now? 

Israfil wrote: Kim states: Hypocrites. No wonder so many people can't be bothered reverting - why would they. The overriding, overwhelming view of all of this is that men are superior, men can sleep around, men can murder...and women can do dishes, pump out babies and be tortured. You make me sick. Kim... I have to say Kim that I'm quite surprised at your reaction to this persons belief on this subject matter. I understand frustration but you being a member here you should understand that not everybody thinks the same way. If you were cautious enough to read my earlier responses you wouldn't be so quick to categorize us so-called "reverts" in one big box. It appears your knowledge of Islam is slightly distorted and I would suggest that you seek our more text or personal discussions with a Muslim in your area the knowledge of Islam because it appears that you have much to learn about Islam....Yes I'm slightly attacking you because I highly take offense to those categorizing all Muslims and using statements as "reverts being reluctant to revert to Islam."

Ok - I'm confused again. WHERE did I abuse reverts? I was talking about non-Muslims NOT converting.

Kim...

Assalamu alaikum,

ZamanH wrote: Also,  I certainly know women don't switch from one man to another, unless there is a very compelling reason to do so.

Brother Zaman, I hate to burst your bubble but in the west, women do sleep around and change partners constantly for no reason other than casual sex.  Women here, married or single, sleep around just as much as the men do.  It is sad and it is sickening, but it is also very true.

Since the advent of birth control, women's liberation, and moving away from Allah, women here are just as "disgusting" as the men.  This is what they call equality I suppose.  Most don't even blink an eye at this behavior.  This is one of the reasons it is so very difficult for Muslims to live in the west.

I would urge you, brother Zaman, not to get personal in your comments.  You are entitled to your opinion as are others.  There is no need to call people names or to hurt peoples feelings.

Peace, ummziba.

KIM you said:

"No wonder so many people can't be bothered reverting"

Ok reverting to what? If you mean Islam then obviously you are making a personal judgement based upon the ignorant words of ZAmanH.

You also said:

"The overriding, overwhelming view of all of this is that men are superior, men can sleep around, men can murder...and women can do dishes, pump out babies and be tortured."

If you are referring to Middle Eastern culture/Islamic states then again you are categorizing  a specific culture and/religious group by indirectly making that comment. Please rephrase what you meant to say so you dont sound so judgemental.

On to Zaman:

Luckily for you I'm a different person. Before long ago if you had made such a smart remark to me especially something personal I shared (only as an example for this discussion) I would intentionally try to break your neck for the purpose of hurting you. But since I am Muslim I have devoted my time to Allah, Lord of the Universe and have since allowed my intelligence and my patience to do the talking. Since this whole discussion cannot be discussed intelligently by you without personally attacking me I have to say this is the last I respond here.

As sister Ummziba has mentioned the actions of women being permiscuous is just as sinful and disgusting as the men. Again, the only reason a women cheats or sleeps around is the purpose of fulfilling a sexual desire. The same with a man plain and simple. Oh another Zaman since my country is full of pigs and your notion of english is such a western hateful one why do you speak English? Only an ignorant fool would loathe a culture and language and yet share the dialect. But no that can't be you you are too smart to hate English and speak it at the same time right?

Only a fool can be culturally judgmental.....I wonder who that can be? Zaman you don't know me nor do you know anything about what I do or who I really am. but for you to make a personal attack using a personal experience which I only shared for the purpose for an example is nothing short of disgusting. Since you claim to know why she left me I assume you know something about me. Since that is the case from how you act here and how culturally judgemental person you are I'm willing to believe that not only are you ignorant but I believe you are prejudice as well. I'm sad that I call you a brother in Islam.

First and foremost let me say I apologize for giving myself a bad name by angrily saying what I would do to another person. that in reality outside of IC is not me, at least not anymore. I find it quite rude and upsetting that another so-called Muslim would use something that is used as an example to use as a personal remark against me. Perhaps there is a lesson here that maybe I shouldn't try to over extend myself by using personal examples. But I feel that to uphold Islamic criterion we shouldn't use negative language towards each other. I must also retract what I said at the end of saying that I'm sad to call you my brother, instead what I should have said was that I'm disappointed in you brother.

However I do feel that you have some quality issues that you need to work outside which you and God can only work on. I cannot judge you nor you cannot judge me. But by your actions on the internet it is quite likely that whatever you say here you will know on the Day of Judgement, as well as whatever I say here. Brother a lesson in life I could teach you is that you should never judge another brother nor should you use personal attacks against another Muslim brother.

This is the problem with Islam today is that we have so many prejudices against one another and use so many hateful words towards one another that its hard to be united. Quite sad, this forum says Men-Brothers yet we cannot even have helpful dialogue.

The woman whom you mentioned was not equipped with true knowledge, in fact to be honest with you she only was engaged to me because of her curiousity of American men--in particular of African-Americans. Quite funny because she is of Egyptian decent I guess majority of the younger generation there love Hip-Hop and I assume the reason she was attracted to me (along with my looks and intellect) was because I resembled what she admired. That lead me to believe that she didn't like me for me but she liked me because of who she desired.

Lesson in life here is if a woman doesn't love you for you but only loves you for what you have or what you may have she is not the one for you. The reason some women cheat is for vanity. Desires get in the way of rational behavior which leads to irrational desicions. When a woman sleeps with another man while engaged with another man she is committing infidelity. She does not say "I want to live with you" while having intercourse she is fulfilling a desire of lust. The actions result in pain and humiliation not only for the man who truly loved her but for her.

A true woman does not even desire another besides her husband and if she does then she should not marry. I echo the same with men. I also echo the same notion with being a Muslim. If a Muslim begins to question God or his faith then perhaps he should isolate himself in deep thought until he/she is wise to come to conclusion of what he/she needs to do to sustain his/her faith.

I for one do not believe in polygamy nor do I believe that a man should marry more women than one because like Kim says, love cannot be divided. Ifg man and woman come from each other then there is a reason why monogamy is important to the human family. Yes I could have erased what I said prior but I want people to see how mistakes can happen and I want people to read what I said here to correct them.

As Salaam Alaikum,

Well, since the discussion/arguement in this thread is as good as over. I would conclude from my side as well.

First of all, I would like to apologise to Israfil for the smart, insensitive remark I made against him. I shouldn't have done so. Maybe, I did that because I felt being pushed to the edge after being repeatedly called hypocrite, being accused of saying what I didn't say and the sarcasm I had to face for my views (which were admittedly, sort of, unorthodox in their orthodoxy). Also, I am sorry to Kim for my remarks to her in this thread as well as in other threads.

As to my views about polygamy, I don't think things add up if we consider polygamy unnatural or ungodly. Allah created men to crave more for sex than woman. That, honestly, is the strongest reason for my belief that the Modern(western) condemnation of polygamy is wrong.

Also, about another course of arguement that resulted from the arguement over polygamy, i.e, a man does not betray his own family by committing adultery, my opinions were the result of my clasp with the culture in which I have been brought up. I think/believe that it is indirectly justified by Islam; as, although Muslim men are permitted to marry christian/jewish woman, Muslim women are not allowed to marry christian/jewish men. Also, men are allowed to have intercourse with female slaves, while, the women are not permitted.

*wonders what it would be like to have more than one husband*

I do not think men crave it more, I think women, after keeping the house, raising the children, doing laundry, cooking, ironiong ect are just palin to tired. Maybe there should be more maids

Also, you cannot just have another wife because you crave sex more. I am positive it is in the Qur'an there must be a need for another wife........and I do not think it means so you can have more sex.

Lameese

Assalamu alaikum,

Brother Israfil,

Just wanted to say I think you are very brave to reveal something personal, have it "bite you back", return that bite and then, in a true act of Islamic behavior, appologize and make things right. 

We are all nervous to "bare our souls" here for fear of being hurt.  Keeping in mind that nobody here really knows us or who we really are, makes it easier, but hurt is still hurt.  You have shown us a beautiful lesson.  Thank you.

Brother Zaman,

You have made many interesting comments all over the boards.  Try to remember that we are all a sum of our own culture, life experiences and genetics.  This is why we all have such diverse ideas about things.  And that is alright, as long as we express them without hurt to others.  I am glad to see you appologized to Israfil and Kim, it takes courage to do that.

I've said it before and I say it again: we Muslims must stick together!

Peace, ummziba. 

Assalamu alaikum,

I came across a very beautiful quote yesterday, took me a while to remember where I had written it down.  I think it is of great relevance to this thread.

"The Prophet said that women totally dominate men of intellect and possessors of hearts.  But ignorant men dominate women, for they are shackled by an animal ferocity.  They have no kindness, gentleness or love, since animality dominates their nature.  Love and kindness are human attributes; anger and sensuality belong to the animals.  She is the radiance of God; she is not your beloved."     Jalal Al-Din Rumi

Peace, ummziba.

ummziba wrote: I came across a very beautiful quote yesterday,... "The Prophet said ........Jalal Al-Din Rumi

Yes, nice, but did the Prophet in  fact say this?  Is this an authentic hadith?  Who collected and narrated this "beautiful quote" attributed to our Prophet (pbuh)?

Assalamu alaikum brother abuayisha,

Sorry, I've no idea where Rumi got this from, or whether he just made it up - I just liked what it said.  If you like, I'll delete the first four words of the quote.  I never claimed it was hadith or even a quote of the Prophet's (pbuh), it is only a quote from Rumi.

Peace, ummziba.

ZamanH,

You say that men have less control over their appitites.........and that if banned it will continue to exist in other ways..........who would you be cheating or comminting this act with? Does it not stand to reason to you that if you feel that way that there are women that feel that way?  Men always say what you say and some go out and have many many many women........the key word  there is women....

Am I making sense?? If women did not crave it to some extent you would have NO ONE to be with......

Lameese

[QUOTE=ZamanH]My point is if polygamy is banned, quite a large number of men (who are otherwise good) will act illegally because of that.

So you are saying that a man, in the end, is like a dog and cannot control himself if polygamy is banned??? Then why not have this for women too? That way it is fair for all.

If you cannot control yourself and HAVE TO HAVE polygamy in palce then maybe it is time you see a Dr. He can get your  "appities" in check.

Lameese

EQUALITY OF MEN AND WOMEN

" Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has Faith, verily, to him will We give a new life, a life that is good and pure, and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions (16:19)"

CONTROL YOURSELF!

the Commander of the Faithful Ali (Pbuh) said:

God the Glorious and the Almighty has given angels intellect with no lust; the animals have lust without intellect; and man has both intellect and lust. Whoever can govern his lust with his intellect is superior to the angels, and whoever loses control of his intellect or his lust is inferior to the animals. [Bihar al-Anwar, v.57, p.299]

JUSTICE IS THE KEY!

" marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course." (Nisa 4:3)

=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-

Men and women have different roles and responsibilities within the context of marriage, however, this does not mean that one person (or one role) is superior to the other.

As a married man, many times I have difficulty fulfilling my Islamic duties toward my ONE WIFE (i.e., being just, being kind and gentle with her in all situations, providing for her and my children financially, etc.) Even if a man has been blessed with wealth, this does not mean that he can be just with his time (i.e., if you have more than one wife, you must be equitable in ALL MATTERS, including the time you spend with them, etc.).

If a man focuses on the rights that his wife and children have on him, vs. what HE WANTS from them, the idea of plural marriage becomes less attractive. If a man is simply wanting to marry a second, third or fourth wife for lustful reasons, then this is prohibited in Islam and he will damage himself and his family. I have seen examples of successul plural marriages (when the man has the means, and both the huband and wife are mumineen (belivers)), however, this is the rare exception. In general, I would stay one wife is preferable (and Islam supports this) for a man who wants to protect himself in this world (Dunya) and the next (Ahira).

Salam

Ali Zaki wrote:  If a man is simply wanting to marry a second, third or fourth wife for lustful reasons, then this is prohibited in Islam ...

What is your evidence that taking another wife for "lustful" reasons is prohibited in Islam?

Salam to Abuayisha,

" What is your evidence that taking another wife for "lustful" reasons is prohibited in Islam?"

Exibit A- Quran

" "Say to the believing men that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts..." (24:30). "

First, it is well known that taking a "second look" at a non-muharam women or even a first look with the intention of seeing her "shape" (even if not covered) is haram. So, is it not logical to say that if looking with lust is forbidden then it can be assumed that marriage for this reason is ALSO forbidden.

"The believers are...those who protect their sexual organs except from their spouse's. . . Therefore, whosoever seeks more beyond that in sexual gratification], then they are the transgressors."(23: 5-6)

"except from their spouse's" mean current spouses. As a result, it is hard to see how "guard themselves" in the way that is discussed and still marry for lustful reasons.

The Prophet (a.s.), our guide and example

It is well known that the Prophet(a.s.) did not marry any of his wives for reasons of lust. There are many proofs for this, however, proof should not be required for a well known fact.

If you would like more evidence I will try to provide it (inshahAllah)

Salam

Ali Zaki wrote: If you would like more evidence I will try to provide it (inshahAllah)

Yes, may Allah reward you, because what you have mentioned thus far, isn't what I consider evidence.

If we define lust as, say, an intense desire, maybe polygamy is a means of avoiding haram actions if they do get married.  One has to avoid haram, especially in the case of marriage, thus keeping himself chaste.

With respect to looking - if ones intention is marriage, this is allowed:

Al-Mughira ibn Shu'bah said, I asked for a woman in marriage and Allah's Messenger (peace be on him) asked me whether I had looked at her. When I replied that I had not, he said 'Then look at her, for it may produce love between you.' I went to her parents and informed them of the Prophet's advice. They seemed to disapprove of the idea. Their daughter heard the conversation from her room and said, 'If the Prophet (peace be on him) has told you to look at me, then look.' I looked at her, and subsequently I married her. (Reported by Ahmad, Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah, Ibn Hibban, and Darimi.)

The Prophet (peace be on him) did not specify either to Mughirah or to the other man how much of the woman they were permitted to see. Some scholars are of the opinion that looking is limited to seeing the face and hands. However, it is permissible for anyone to see the face and hands as long as no desire is involved; therefore, if asking for woman in marriage is an exemption, obviously the man making the proposal should be able to see much more of the woman than that. The Prophet (peace be on him) said, "When one of you asks for woman in marriage, if he is able to look at what will induce him to marry her, he should do so." (Reported by Abu Daoud.)

Also, with respect to �intense desire� women are usually hidden behind veils and inside their houses, and women tend to be more even-tempered than men, and less active than men, and men have been given more physical strength and energy which makes men�s desires greater than woman�s and men are affected by these desires more than women,  a man is allowed to marry more partners than a woman is. This is one of the things that have been given exclusively to men and not to women, one of the things in which they have been given something more than women, just as they are also favoured over women in that only men can be Messengers, Prophets, caliphs, kings, governors and judges, and go out for jihad, etc., and men have been made qawwaamoon (protectors and maintainers) of women, taking care of them, working to provide them with the means of living, exposing themselves to danger, travelling about in the land and exposing themselves to all sorts of trials in order to take care of their wives. 

Muslim narrated the following hadith:

Isnad: Suleiman bin 'abd alRahman and 'Ali bin Hujr � 'Ibsai bin Bunus � Hisham bin 'Urwa � 'Abd Allah bin 'Urwah � 'Urwah

Narrated 'Aisha:

Eleven women sat (at a place) and promised and contracted that they would not conceal anything of the news of their husbands.

The first one said, "My husband is like the meat of a lean weak camel which is kept on the top of a mountain which is neither easy to climb, nor is the meat fat, so that one might put up with the trouble of fetching it."

The second one said, "I shall not relate my husband's news, for I fear that I may not be able to finish his story, for if I describe him, I will mention all his defects and bad traits."

The third one said, "My husband is a tall man; if I describe him (and he hears of that) he will divorce me, and if I keep quiet, he will neither divorce me nor treat me as a wife."

The fourth one said, "My husband is a moderate person like the night of Tihama which is neither hot nor cold. I am neither afraid of him, nor am I discontented with him."

The fifth one said, "My husband, when entering (the house) is a leopard, and when going out, is a lion. He does not ask about whatever is in the house."

The sixth one said, "If my husband eats. he eats too much (leaving the dishes empty), and if he drinks he leaves nothing, and if he sleeps he sleeps alone (away from me) covered in garments and does not stretch his hands here and there so as to know how I fare (get along)."

The seventh one said, "My husband is a wrong-doer or weak and foolish. All the defects are present in him. He may injure your head or your body or may do both."

The eighth one said, "My husband is soft to touch like a rabbit and smells like a Zarnab (a kind of good smelling grass)."

The ninth one said, "My husband is a tall generous man wearing a long strap for carrying his sword. His ashes are abundant and his house is near to the people who would easily consult him."

The tenth one said, "My husband is Malik, and what is Malik? Malik is greater than whatever I say about him. (He is beyond and above all praises which can come to my mind). Most of his camels are kept at home (ready to be slaughtered for the guests) and only a few are taken to the pastures. When the camels hear the sound of the lute (or the tambourine) they realize that they are going to be slaughtered for the guests."

The eleventh one said, "My husband is Abu Zar and what is Abu Zar (i.e., what should I say about him)? He has given me many ornaments and my ears are heavily loaded with them and my arms have become fat (i.e., I have become fat). And he has pleased me, and I have become so happy that I feel proud of myself. He found me with my family who were mere owners of sheep and living in poverty, and brought me to a respected family having horses and camels and threshing and purifying grain . Whatever I say, he does not rebuke or insult me. When I sleep, I sleep till late in the morning, and when I drink water (or milk), I drink my fill. The mother of Abu Zar and what may one say in praise of the mother of Abu Zar? Her saddle bags were always full of provision and her house was spacious. As for the son of Abu Zar, what may one say of the son of Abu Zar? His bed is as narrow as an unsheathed sword and an arm of a kid (of four months) satisfies his hunger. As for the daughter of Abu Zar, she is obedient to her father and to her mother. She has a fat well-built body and that arouses the jealousy of her husband's other wife. As for the (maid) slave girl of Abu Zar, what may one say of the (maid) slavegirl of Abu Zar? She does not uncover our secrets but keeps them, and does not waste our provisions and does not leave the rubbish scattered everywhere in our house." The eleventh lady added, "One day it so happened that Abu Zar went out at the time when the milk was being milked from the animals, and he saw a woman who had two sons like two leopards playing with her two breasts. (On seeing her) he divorced me and married her. Thereafter I married a noble man who used to ride a fast tireless horse and keep a spear in his hand. He gave me many things, and also a pair of every kind of livestock and said, 'Eat (of this), O Um Zar, and give provision to your relatives." She added, "Yet, all those things which my second husband gave me could not fill the smallest utensil of Abu Zar's." 'Aisha then said: Allah's Apostle said to me, "I am to you as Abu Zar was to his wife Um Zar."

Salam to abuayisha,

I hesitate to discuss this, as my suspicion is that we are talking about something that is clear in Quran and Hadith and about which there is little debate between various schools of thought in Islam. I also suspect that there is (in reality) very little "daylight" between us on this, and we are just not carefully defining our terms.

Quickly,

If you define "Lust" simply as "sexual desire" (as many Western physicology books do), then there is (of course) no problem with this in general. Marriage is made easy and adaptable to our needs in Islam, as Allah (s.w.a.) knows well our needs. In fact, I have read some hadiths that specify a reward for a man having intercourse with his lawful wife that is similar to the reward for jihad al-zarir (the lesser jihad, or, fighting in the way of Allah (s.w.a.)).

However, Lust is commonly defined (by Muslims, Chrisitians, Jews) as an inordinant sexual desire, or, a "satanically inspired" desire. If a man looks at a women with lust that is 1.) non-muharram and 2.) without her knowledge and permission then this is clearly forbidden (based on ayat previously quoted). If a man is looking at a women in a controlled setting, with the clear and sincere intention of marriage and with her (and in some cases her fathers) permission, then this is a different matter all together.

In an Islamic society, men and women do not engage in joking, flirting behavior, etc. This is to prevent inordinant, destructive or unatural desires from forming or being acted upon. Since you also live in the U.S., you know that free and open contact between non-muharam men and women is everywhere you go. This is not based on religious princples, but rather, animalistic tendencies that exist in every person if not controlled.

Regarding the "11th", I do not accept this part of the hadith. Abu Zar (may Allah be pleased with him) was a pious and respect companion of the Holy Messenger (a.s.) and would not divorce his wife because he "happened to see" a more physically attractive women. This is the behavior of oppresive rulers like Yazid, not a noble and respected companion of the Prophet (a.s.). If you look into the chain of narration, I'm sure you will find some individuals with questionable credibility.

Salam

My basic issue here is that we must exercise extreme caution when saying something is forbidden in Islam.  You asserted that "If a man is simply wanting to marry a second, third or fourth wife for lustful reasons, then this is prohibited in Islam" and I do not believe your statement is supported by textual evidence.  Certainly, I suppose we can say that as a result of not lowering the gaze, one may became "satanically inspired" but does this mean his subsequent marriage is forbidden? 

Salam to Abuayisha,

With all due respect, if you want an answer according to Shira, then ask a Muslim scholar that you respect and not me. I am not "making a Fatwa", nor am I qualified to do so.

Notice, my definition of Lust was defined as a sexually desire that is inordinant or satanically inspired. Based on this, I don't think there is any controversy, and I'm not trying to be controversial. The Holy Quran, in several places (although I can't put my finger on the exact verse right now, and I'm reading it in English) condemns all types of lustful, sexual behavior and cautions against it. Again, I suspect that we are just mixing up our definitions here.

Salam

Ali Zaki wrote:  The Holy Quran, in several places (although I can't put my finger on the exact verse right now, and I'm reading it in English) condemns all types of lustful, sexual behavior and cautions against it.

Are you saying that the verse you can't put your finger on, condemns lustful, sexual behavior between a man and his second, third or fourth wife?  Because this is the issue, not terminology, and, that you understand the importance of having proof for your assertions.  May Allah, Most High, bless you - your point about asking a scholar is well taken.

So you are saying that a man, in the end, is like a dog and cannot control himself if polygamy is banned??? Then why not have this for women too? That way it is fair for all.

Men are just as much like dogs as women are as like ...

Men and women are significantly different. Equality of rights don't imply their identicality. Man and women are very different (both physically and mentally) and their responsibilities are different. What is right for one is not be neccessarily right for others. In Islam, one  (either of the men and women) has greater right over the other, here and there, but overall it evens out.

ZamanH wrote: So you are saying that a man, in the end, is like a dog and cannot control himself if polygamy is banned??? Then why not have this for women too? That way it is fair for all. Men are just as much like dogs as women are as like ... Men and women are significantly different. Equality of rights don't imply their identicality. Man and women are very different (both physically and mentally) and their responsibilities are different. What is right for one is not be neccessarily right for others. In Islam, one  (either of the men and women) has greater right over the other, here and there, but overall it evens out.

Well, isn't that easy for you to say since you are a man. It is nice to know it evens out, I do not blieve that at all because I am a woman and live it.

Let me ask you, do you want to share your wife with another man? And I know the answer is no. So, what makes you think your wife wants to share you with another woman? I believe if it could be equally done then everyone would just have one wife and one husband and there would be a lot more respect going on.

Lameese

Salam to Lamese,

I respect that you would not want to share you're husband with another women (and I suspect most women would agree with you, and you can include MY wife in that category as well). It is clear to anyone who studies Quran, Sunnah or the life of the Prophet that a one man/one women marriage is the BEST and PREFERED type of marriage. I don't thing anyone is advocating plural marriage, however, noone is saying that polygamy is haram either (it is in Quran).

If a women is absolutely certain that she would never accept that her husband marries another women, this is easy to take care of (if it is done before marriage). All she has to do is ask the sheik to write it into the marriage contract. If both (the prospective husband and wife) accept, then he is bound by this condition. You can check with your sheik on this.

Salam

Salam to Ali Zaki,

Thank you for the info. I do already know this but sometimes I get tired of men spouting off about this. It is like not having respect for women when this subject comes up.

"If you cannot treat all wives fairly, then take only one"

How could you treat them all fairly? I agree it is better to take only one but I think if the situation was equal then the respect would be higher for each couple. The Prophet did not marry for fun. He married women that were widdowed by wars or women who had nothing. He was a better man then any of today's.

Thanks again,

Lameese

Lameese wrote: Well, isn't that easy for you to say since you are a man. It is nice to know it evens out, I do not blieve that at all because I am a woman and live it.

As far as I know, you are a lebanese with a christian husband. And Lebanon does not implement Islamic law. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Also, even if you think that women don't have equal rights in Islam, I think they still have sufficient rights so that most of them live happily and with respect. E.g. they have as much right to live as men, right to get educated and to be taken good care of by their husbands.

Lameese wrote: Let me ask you, do you want to share your wife with another man? And I know the answer is no. So, what makes you think your wife wants to share you with another woman? I believe if it could be equally done then everyone would just have one wife and one husband and there would be a lot more respect going on. Lameese

As I have earlier said, if I marry another woman I won't be going to her home. She will be coming to my home. That is why I believe I won't be cheating my wife. I won't be leaving my first wife, she will be living with me in my home.

[/QUOTE]

As far as I know, you are a lebanese with a christian husband. And Lebanon does not implement Islamic law. Please correct me if I am wrong.

As per usual, you are wrong. I am not Lebaneese and my husband is not a Christian.

Also, even if you think that women don't have equal rights in Islam, I think they still have sufficient rights so that most of them live happily and with respect. E.g. they have as much right to live as men, right to get educated and to be taken good care of by their husbands.

Well, do the women get to enjoy these rights or does A LOT of culture get in the way? Because the majority of my friends do not get their full rights. But of course, that is due to the culture of the various nationalities.

Lameese wrote: Let me ask you, do you want to share your wife with another man? And I know the answer is no. So, what makes you think your wife wants to share you with another woman? I believe if it could be equally done then everyone would just have one wife and one husband and there would be a lot more respect going on. Lameese

As I have earlier said, if I marry another woman I won't be going to her home. She will be coming to my home. That is why I believe I won't be cheating my wife. I won't be leaving my first wife, she will be living with me in my home.

[/QUOTE]

I think you need to provide a home for both wives. That would be equal. Espically if you are treating them the same, as it says.  But you will probably not have to worry abou this. :)

Lameese 

But you will probably not have to worry abou this. :)

That was a bitchy thing to say.   

But you need not worry either.

As per usual, you are wrong. I am not Lebaneese and my husband is not a Christian.

I was confused. Don't get to read your posts often. You seem to be talking as if you have a Muslim husband and I believe you are a non-Muslim.

Well, do the women get to enjoy these rights or does A LOT of culture get in the way? Because the majority of my friends do not get their full rights. But of course, that is due to the culture of the various nationalities.

yeah you are right. That is embarassing. But my approach will implementing the religious laws more thoroughly  and thus, improve the plight of women. And NOT directly improving the plight of women by obviating the religion.

ZamanH wrote: But you will probably not have to worry abou this. :) That was a bitchy thing to say.    But you need not worry either.

Aren't you nice? And I will never have to worry about it :)

ZamanH wrote: As per usual, you are wrong. I am not Lebaneese and my husband is not a Christian. I was confused. Don't get to read your posts often. You seem to be talking as if you have a Muslim husband and I believe you are a non-Muslim. Well, do the women get to enjoy these rights or does A LOT of culture get in the way? Because the majority of my friends do not get their full rights. But of course, that is due to the culture of the various nationalities. yeah you are right. That is embarassing. But my approach will implementing the religious laws more thoroughly  and thus, improve the plight of women. And NOT directly improving the plight of women by obviating the religion.

So you are confused and assuming? And you alone will improve the "Plight of Women"? I never mentioned anything about me or my husband to you. Again, you assume an awful lot.

Lameese

You thought I would not mind to you calling me names? How old are you??????? You totally disrespect me because you do not like what I am saying to you. How mature is that?

And are you sorry you did it or just sorry I mided it? Is this being a good Muslim?

Lameese

You thought I would not mind to you calling me names? 

Because you made a personal comment and I responded. I won't have been calling you names it if you haven't done that.

You totally disrespect me because you do not like what I am saying to you. How mature is that?

No not at all. I don't mind at all what you say, unless you personally attack me.

And are you sorry you did it or just sorry I mided it?

You made a personal comment, I got slightly angry. I am sorry that I overreacted.

Is this being a good Muslim?

Shane Warne would be even worse and as far as I know, Enimem's mother had to sue him for abusing her!!! They were not Muslims.

ZamanH

Maybe you need a little more years on you to see that you are very immature :)

ZamanH wrote: You thought I would not mind to you calling me names?  Because you made a personal comment and I responded. I won't have been calling you names it if you haven't done that. You totally disrespect me because you do not like what I am saying to you. How mature is that? No not at all. I don't mind at all what you say, unless you personally attack me. And are you sorry you did it or just sorry I mided it? You made a personal comment, I got slightly angry. I am sorry that I overreacted. Is this being a good Muslim? Shane Warne would be even worse and as far as I know, Enimem's mother had to sue him for abusing her!!! They were not Muslims.

Thank you, now I know that you are not an honourable man. You rationalize and give excuses for that you have called me. This makes you a child playing at being a man.  3AIB!

Assalamu Alaikum

ZamanH, I want to bring this topic back to the top.  You said in a the thread in the brother�s section that if someone could present you with an ayat or hadith which states that a man betrays his wife by having illegal sexual intercourse, then you would admit you were wrong about your claim that a woman betrays her husband when she has illegal sexual intercourse during marriage; however, her husband only cheats the father or the husband of the women he has illegal sexual intercourse with, not his wife.  That is, you believe a man cannot cheat on his wife regarding matter of illegal sexual intercourse.  Well, after doing some pretty intensive research on the subject, I was unable to find a single ayat or hadith that states that a man betrays his wife if he has illegal sexual intercourse outside of their marriage.  However, I, also, did not find a single ayat or hadith that says a woman betrays her husband if she has illegal sexual intercourse outside of their marriage.  So, given your logic, does this mean she doesn�t betray him either?  If she doesn�t betray her husband, how does she betray?  We know who you think he betrays.

Actually, ZamanH, your adamant position regarding this matter has led me to do quite a bit of research on the subject and I have found some interesting things.  First, it is clear from the Qur�an and Sunnah that illegal sexual intercourse before as well as during marriage is forbidden for both men and women.  Second, it is clear from the Qur�an and Sunnah that the punishment for illegal sexual intercourse before marriage entails lashing for both men and women.  Third, it is clear from the Sunnah that the punishment for illegal sexual intercourse during marriage is being stoned to death for both men and women.  Now, given this information, let�s take a look at your claim. 

Regarding illegal sexual intercourse before marriage:

Your claim is that a man cheats either the woman�s father or husband depending on whether she is married or not. 

              The punishment for that according to the Sunnah is:

                           100 lashes and 1 year in exile.

Regarding illegal sexual intercourse after marriage:

Your claim is that a man cheats either the woman�s father or husband depending on whether she is married or not.

             The punishment for that according to the Sunnah is:

Being stoned to death.

If you are right in your claim and there is no difference before and after marriage regarding who is cheated, they why is a man punished differently after marriage than before?  Why is a man lashed 100 times and sent into exile for one year for illegal sexual intercourse before marriage and stoned to death after marriage?  If his crime is the same (i.e., he only cheats the father or the husband of the women he has illegal sexual intercourse with), then what is the justification for the difference in the punishment?  There surely has to be a reason because neither Allah nor the Prophet (pbuh) is unreasonable or unjust.  Right?  It would appear that there must be something about marriage that gives rise to that greater level of punishment.  Do you think it could be that prior to marriage, he had made no binding contract that committed him to the laws (including punishment for violating them) which regulate marriage?  Furthermore, do you think it could be that once he makes a binding marriage contract with a woman, he then is held accountable to the laws (including punishment for violating them) which regulate that contract, and that if he violates his marriage contract, he is held accountable for the violation and must suffer the consequences by receiving the punishment for violating the marriage contract?  Actually, I know of no other way to explain the difference in punishment without believing that either Allah or the Prophet was unreasonable or unjust to men.  I don�t know about you, but I find that not only highly unlikely, but actually impossible.  In fact, I believe that the only reason the husband is punished more harshly after making the marriage contract is because he violated the marriage contract.  That is, he cheats�betrays�the agreement he made when he married.  That is, he agreed not to become involved in any illegal sexual intercourse.  You may argue that he doesn�t mean he cheats�betrays�his wife women, but rather, he merely cheats the marriage contract.  That is fine if you would like to think of it that way.  However, if you do so, you will also have to accept the fact that his wife, also, does not cheat him but merely the marriage contract.

ZamanH, I know that you want to find ways to justify your own believes about men and women�s relationships; however, it is so clear in the Qur�an and Sunnah that man and women are equal when it comes to issues relating to sexual intercourse.  Your claim is that men have a greater sexual appetite than women is not well founded.  There is no indication in the Qur�an or Sunnah that that is the case.  You can not use polygamy to justify your statement.  Allah did not make it legal for men to marry more than one wife because they had greater sex drives; rather, He did so in order for women and children to be properly protected.  Despite what you and some other men might like to think, being in the company of unlawful women is just as haraam after marriage as it is before.  And it is not permitted for men to gaze upon other women either before or after marriage.  I simply do not know how any man or woman could even come close to adultery once they are married if they are pious.  One cannot say that just because the Prophet had more than one wife, a man can simply justify taking another wife as well.  Once the Prophet married Aisha, he never approached another woman regarding marriage.  Every single one of his last eight marriages were for reasons other than sexual gratification.  Sure, he fulfilled his marriage obligation to those women; however, not because he had lust in his heart for any of them.  He fulfilled his marriage obligations to all of his wives as a means to show others in Islam what is important and to strengthen Islam as Allah commanded him to do.  He did not treat his wives as if he had a harem.  He treated each of them with respect and dignity giving each their own homes to live in no matter what circumstance lead to the marriage.

Brother ZamanH, I beg of you to seriously look at your position and what I have said here.  If your claims are true, then why would Allah and the Prophet (pbuh) be so unfair to men with respect to giving them the same punishment as women both before and during marriage when it came to the issue of illegal sexual intercourse?  Why would Allah and the Prophet (pbuh) command that women satisfy their husbands and for men to satisfy their wives sexually during marriage?  Why such equality in this matter if there is the difference you claim there is?

One more thing before I close, an interesting things came to my attention while I was researching the Sunnah, I found that there were cases in which husbands accused their wives of committing illegal sexual intercourse and the Prophet (pbuh) had to remind them of the punishment they would receive if they brought forth accusations they could not prove.  In those cases, the men did not continue with their accusations.  I never saw one hadith which stated a woman tried to do that to her husband.  Just some food for thought!  Allah always knows best.

PAZ, Khadija

Assalamu alaikum,

Sisters, while Brother ZamanH. may have some views that seem out of step with the teachings of Islam, perhaps we must still keep in mind that he is a Muslim and therefore deserves respect.  Some comments are getting rather nasty - this is not the way our beloved Prophet (pbuh) would argue a case, do you think?

Don't let nastiness lead to more of the same, nor differing opinions lead to animosity in the ummah.  Please, let's all argue our points with manners and respect.  And let's try to keep in mind that we are all a product of our upbringing, life experiences and environment!

peace, ummziba.

ummziba wrote: Assalamu alaikum, Sisters, while Brother ZamanH. may have some views that seem out of step with the teachings of Islam, perhaps we must still keep in mind that he is a Muslim and therefore deserves respect.  Some comments are getting rather nasty - this is not the way our beloved Prophet (pbuh) would argue a case, do you think? Don't let nastiness lead to more of the same, nor differing opinions lead to animosity in the ummah.  Please, let's all argue our points with manners and respect.  And let's try to keep in mind that we are all a product of our upbringing, life experiences and environment! peace, ummziba.

Sister Ummziba, I'm assuming that since you said "sisters", that you may be referring to me as well and not just to Jenni.  I do not feel that I have been disrespectful toward Brother ZamanH.  In fact, I have gone out of my way to present a logical argument regardig his position despite the fact that he has not be so kind to others time and time again.  I don't like being referred to as a "whore" just because I'm from a "western" culture.  I did not see anyone objecting to ZamanH's frequent crude remarks which he always blames on others.  No one makes us respond such...it is a choice.  Even if we are hurt or angered by someone's position, we can choose not to stoop to their level.  I feel that Brother ZamanH's position is at times very unIslamic and as such, I feel that I have the right to point out were his opinion takes him off course with respect to Islam.  Isn't that what we are here for?  To help each other learn?  And although I agree with you that we are all products of our "upbringing, life experiences and environment", we should not use that as an excuse to bend Islam to our liking instead of living it the way it was meant for us to live it.  Allah told Abraham not to follow the path of his ancesters because in doing so, he would fail to live as a true Muslim.  We should all take a serious look at our "upbringing, life experiences and environment" and see which parts are not condusive to living pious Muslim lives.  Then we should do whatever is within our power to eradicate those things from our lives. 

Sister Ummziba, if you feel that I have been disrespectful to Brother ZamanH or anyone else, I would greatly appreciate it if you would point out what I said that leads you to believe I had. 

PAZ, Khadija

         & ;nbs p;            & ;nbs p;    Your claim is that a man cheats either the woman�s father or

         & ;nbs p;            & ;nbs p;    husband depending on whether she is married or not.

             The punishment for that according to the Sunnah is:

         & ;nbs p;            & ;nbs p;    Being stoned to death.

If you are right in your claim and there is no difference before and after marriage regarding who is cheated, they why is a man punished differently after marriage than before?  Why is a man lashed 100 times and sent into exile for one year for illegal sexual intercourse before marriage and stoned to death after marriage?  If his crime is the same (i.e., he only cheats the father or the husband of the women he has illegal sexual intercourse with), then what is the justification for the difference in the punishment?

ZamanH wrote: The laxity given to individuals who committed illicit intercourse and who were not married was probably because they experienced greater push/temptation towards acting illegally (as they didn't have their spouses to satisfy them sexually). The married people indulged in sex even though they had their spouses  to satisfy them, thus they deserve greater punishment.

So, in other words Brother ZamanH, the fact that one has a spouse does indeed give rise to this greater punishment.  And it is not simply any greater punishment but the difference between living and dying, I might add.  It is not simply because a man is cheating the father or the husband of the women he is having illegal sexual intercourse with. But rather because he is violating the marriage contract.  See, I knew you and I would come to an agreement sooner or later.

PAZ, Khadija

ZamanH wrote: He treated each of them with respect and dignity giving each their own homes to live in no matter what circumstance lead to the marriage. He did give each of them their own "home" but the homes were adjacent to each other, besides all his wives live in the homes which were given to them by him. The homes still belonged to the Prophet, though they were given to the wives by him.

Brother ZamanH, who owns the house cannot be a true issue with respect to the nature of married men cheating/betrayal when engaging in illegal sexual intercourse.  What if neither owns the house or if they jointly own the house.  Of if she owns the house?  In each case, the nature of his betrayal would change.  In fact, if what you say is true, in the case where the wife owns the home, she would not be cheating/betraying her husband by engaging in illegal sexual intercourse.  This just doesn't make sense. 

Would you please tell me why this "home ownership" thing is such a big issue to you?  As we discussed before, nothing really belongs to any of us, it is simply by the blessing of Allah that He lets us borrow from Him while we are here on this earth.  I understand that in Islam, if the husband owns property it is his; however, if the wife owns property, it is hers as well.  If they divorce, they each retain their own property.  Women are not denied the right to own property in Islam even though many cultures deny them the right to do such.

I simply could not marry and live with a man who looked upon me as nothing more than a piece of furniture he brought in to his home and which he could dispose of simply because he so desired.  How can a women feel safe and protected if she never feels as if the place where she lives is her home?  I know that in some Muslim communities such men use the ownership of their homes as a threat to their wives.  If the wife does not strictly follow her husband's rules (and in most cases the rules of his mother), he simply tells her to get out of his house.  There is no discussion between them about things...it is either the man and his familie's way or get out.  So, the ownership of his home gives him a weapon against his wife, thereby, giving rise to her living a life of submission and fear. 

PAZ, Khadija

Assalamu alaikum,

Sister Khadija, of course I was not refering to you!  (I am sorry that you would think so.)  You always argue your point with well thought out comments.  However, I should have addressed my post to Brothers and Sisters, so those who use name calling and other insults might recognize themselves and try to argue in a more reasonable manner.  And, those who do not would understand it was not meant for them.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I do get frustrated with the amount of name calling and other insults the Muslims are using against each other all over the boards - this causes such animosity among the Muslims.  In these times where so many are against us, it is important that we can be for each other.

Peace, ummziba.

Assalamu alaikum,

Sister Jenni, you are entirely correct when you say that Brother ZamanH. has posted many things that seem to point to the fact that he may dislike women.  I personally would give him the benefit of the doubt, as we can't truly know anyone on a forum through words alone.  Many people who come across as gruff or severe can actually have a kinder, gentler side that we just have not seen.

Many men have no problem seeing everything in black and white, this can come across as rigid and unmoving.  I know, I'm married to someone like that.  People think he is severe and even scary, but, I know better (he's really a very kind and soft hearted person), though you would never guess without getting to know him much better.

In any case, none of us, not ZamanH. or you or me, none of the Muslims should resort to name calling and gruff language with one another.  We need to argue our points politely and if we still don't agree - at least agree to disagree!

Sometimes I think that those who take human psychology courses let that get in the way of common sense, good judgement and learning from experience.  Humans are much more complex than any science can put between the pages of a book.  Humans are much more complex than something you can judge merely from words they post in a forum.

(And, by the way, I have taken human psychology courses.  I find life a far better teacher.)

Peace, ummziba.

As'Salaamu Alaikum,

First Allah's peace and blessings be upon God's beloved sisters Khadija, Ummziba and Jenni. Call me the "devil's advocate" (Astragfirullah) but I believe that Zaman maybe misunderstood or perhaps not. I think that what Zaman is talking about is his true feelings and perhpas the way he is coveying them is misunderstood. I don't think Zaman intentionally tries to degrade women with his words even though it sounds like it, but then againI dont know.

I wanted to say sister Khadija its quite hard for you to offend me as I love you sisters dearly and unfortunately because of our geographical limitations it unfortunate that I cannot see your faces but, then again Allah knows best. I understand many of you sisters try hard to understand us brothers and sometimes the communication is difficult. I only hope that we all can come to an understanding eventually on this thread.

Sisters are an important part in the fabric of the Muslim community and its important to know what women want. Unfortunately in the world what we see are tribal customs performed to oppress the women (even the sisters). The goal for Muslim men and women is to unite and acknowledge these errors in our community and go on from there, but first before we make such a large step I'm hoping we can start here Inshallah.

   A group that has members with different capabilities is more likely to succeed in varying circumstances, than a group that has members with identical abilities, as each of its member can help to guide it effectively in different circumstances which their talent/capabilities specifically enable them to handle. Such a group is better called a team. It is also more productive as each of its members can undertake tasks which only he can do (within the team) and which others want to be get done for achievements of their own objectives, but lack the ability to do that task.  

    Husbands and wife, together, can also be said to constitute a team. As, man and women are biologically and mentally significantly (if not greatly) different, it is obvious that their capabilities will also be different. There will always be some tasks which one of them (man and woman) can do better than the other. Although, sometimes, depending on the circumstances, there can be reversal of roles, but in general, they should undertake to do tasks which they are naturally adapted to do. That is, the task they undertake to do need not be identical but complementary. Their duties and rights complement each other. Rights of husbands are duties of wife, and rights of wife are duties of husbands.

    A team always need a captain to coordinate the activities of its members and also, to concentrate the resources of the team and efforts of its members, on one particular course of action undertaken to achieve an objective (instead of being wasted on different parallel courses of action adopted by various members according to their own whims and fancies to achieve the same objective). Man, in general, makes a better captain because he possesses greater mental firmness and thus, has the greater inclination to concentrate  and direct his work and also, that of other members of the team.

    Needless to say, a team cannot have more than one captain. For a team to have more than one captain, is as good, as having no captain at all. As each of the captains will strive to lead the team in the direction he thinks best and which is highly unlikely to be same as the direction of other captains(if at all). Individually, they might be right in their own different approaches but team is required to follow only one of them, to prevent loss of resources and wastage of efforts of its members, in following different approaches to achieve the same objective. (Actually, I am a student of engineering and we are also taught management, and I have been taught at length about dangers of such compositions of teams).

   It is in this respect that I see the wisdom of Allah in making man and women as they are. To foster greater and better cooperation between them, He gifted men with quality of greater mental firmness, so that they can be better leaders and not falter, while He made women to be lenient/permissive to follow the man she chose (chose, of course, is the operative word, here) to live with, better.

   Also, as it is the duty of wife to follow her husband, she cannot follow more than one husband (it is highly unlikely, they will agree to do the same thing) at the same time. Thus, right to have more than one wife for a man (as granted by Islam) cannot be compared to women's right to have more than one husband.

   Also, during intercourse, a woman can be said to promise (by instincts, irrespective of her acting in accordance to it or not) to the man she has intercourse with, to be obedient to him. Therefore, if she has sex outside marriage, it can be considered that she lied to her husband when she had intercourse with him (and promised to obey him). However, for the man, who indulged in sex after marriage, it can't be said he backtracked on his promise to serve his wife (though, he did cheat the husband/father of the women with whom he indulged in illicit sex.
 

Waqar (he is my brother, I agree fully with him, the italicised portion of the message is by me, i.e, Z.H).

Assalamu Alaikum

Sister Jenni, at this point I fully agree with you.  It seems that the customs and traditions of some societies are so thoroughly enmeshed in some people�s belief system that even divine revelation (Qur'an) is not safe from the twists and bends that they apply to life between the sexes.  I learned a very valuable lesson many years ago.  It goes like this:  �If someone walked up to you on the street and told you that you had grown a monkey�s tail, you might choose to over look it.  However, if several people came up to you and told you that you had grown a monkey�s tail, although it sounds completely implausible, wouldn�t you at least take the time to check it out?�  The way I see it, when an adult refuses to see that 1 + 1 = 2, it's definitely time to find something else to discuss. 

PAZ, Khadija

Salaam,

The main reason women cheat is very simple....They hack the internet and download cheat codes to beat us in video games....No wonder I keep losing to lilttle sis

Zaman bro,

One does not need hadith to show common sense. If a women has sex outside of marriage via sexual intercourse with another man its called cheating. The oath originally was between the man and women and vice versa. The same rule applies to the man. If a man brings a woman to his house and he is married there is no infidelity there so long as there is mutual respect. I would assume the woman being brought to the house is a female relative and not someone other than his wife.

But if at any point the man engages in sexual intercourse with the woman (other than the wife or any family memeber) then that is cheating because his prior oath is to one woman. Both men and women cheat and it takes a responsible man and woman to uphold their marital oaths to each other. What you've said prior did not logically make any sense and for you to say that you need hadith to confirm otherwise is a stubborn request. Majority of the people here (even moderators) believe what you say makes no sense. I'm not saying change how you think but at least take your extended family's opinions serious to some extent and rethink your position because its obviously flawed bro.

Assalamualaikum wa rahmatullah,

Zaman, please define cheating. It seems if person A is obviously and materially harmed by another (B), where A and B are locked in a situation when they are not supposed to do this, only then you call it cheating. If the actions do not bring any obvious material harm, then for you it is not cheating. Is this so? 

If a man is having sex in any relationship other than a legal marriage, he is cheating his own soul even if he does not believe to have cheated his wedded wife! - because he committed adultery, thus followed his nafs and corrupted his soul.

Marriage is a commitment, and that commitment entails one not to commit infedility. When a man engages himself in a relationship which he is not supposed to engaged in, he commits infedility to the one who is in an intimate legal relationship with him ie his wife.  Not only this, if there are children from his marriage, he is even cheating his children, if he spends his time and attention outside the household in a haram setup.

If a man gambles, or spends his money in any other illegal way, that deprive his wife and kids, even that is cheating, then how come, spending his emotions, his attention, and his time in an illegal way, that deprive his wife and kids of these benefits will not be cheating?

Maa salaama,

Nausheen

Nausheen wrote: Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem, Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim, Assalamualaikum wa rahmatullah, Zaman, please define cheating. It seems if person A is obviously and materially harmed by another (B), where A and B are locked in a situation when they are not supposed to do this, only then you call it cheating. If the actions do not bring any obvious material harm, then for you it is not cheating. Is this so?  If a man is having sex in any relationship other than a legal marriage, he is cheating his own soul even if he does not believe to have cheated his wedded wife! - because he committed adultery, thus followed his nafs and corrupted his soul. Marriage is a commitment, and that commitment entails one not to commit infedility. When a man engages himself in a relationship which he is not supposed to engaged in, he commits infedility to the one who is in an intimate legal relationship with him ie his wife.  Not only this, if there are children from his marriage, he is even cheating his children, if he spends his time and attention outside the household in a haram setup. If a man gambles, or spends his money in any other illegal way, that deprive his wife and kids, even that is cheating, then how come, spending his emotions, his attention, and his time in an illegal way, that deprive his wife and kids of these benefits will not be cheating? Maa salaama, Nausheen

I know,a man must give equal attention to all his wives, otherwise, he is neglecting some of them.

But duties of woman to her husband include obeying him. Duties of husband is essentially to fullfil her materialistic needs. (This I believe to be natural human trait because this was practised,  in all the human societies, including the islamic ones). And it is possible for man to protect more than one woman, but not for woman to follow more than one man at the same time. That is the reason, I believe that man doesn't cheat his wife by having sex outside marriage, he cheats another man, though. That was the norm followed in all the societies of the world before modern western ideas were accepted.

Also, I am not absolving or defending the man who has sex outside marriage. I am only opposing this particular western (and non-islamic) concept that is increasingly being accepted by the Muslims.