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A question to all my Christian friends

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Patty View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Patty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 January 2007 at 7:56am

I love these words of St. Paul.  It sums up the need for great faith, especially in times like these when we can't find the exact answer we would love to have:

"Last of all, as to one untimely born, he [Jesus] appeared also to me. / For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. / But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me has not been in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them--though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me." (1 Cor 15:8-10)"

Here is the Pauline Chronology if anyone is interested:

Pauline Chronology: His Life and Missionary Work
by Felix Just, S.J., Ph.D.


The Traditional (but Inaccurate) Division of Paul's Travels:

People usually talk about "Paul's Three Missionary Journeys" (each beginning/ending in Antioch), followed by "Paul's Voyage to Rome"

1)  Acts 13�14 2)  Acts 15:39�18:22 3)  Acts 18:23�21:16 R) Acts 22�28

For some online maps of this traditional understanding of the three "journeys", see the Good News Christian Ministries, or the Maps Related to the Life of Paul by Nancy Carter; see also the larger list of Ancient World Maps by Dr. Mark Goodacre.

Problems with this schema:

  • Paul is not in charge during the first journey; rather, Barnabas is the leader and Paul is his assistant (see Acts 11:31; 13:1-2; 14:12).
  • After he and Barnabas go their separate ways, Paul never works alone, but always has a number of assistants (esp. Timothy; see Acts 15:39-40; 16:1-3; and most letter beginnings).
  • The so-called second and third "Journeys" are not really circle-trips departing from and returning to Antioch (see Acts 18:18-23); rather, Paul makes a definite break with Barnabas and the Church at Antioch (see Gal 2:11-14; Acts 15:39-40), and only visits Antioch briefly later.

A Better, More Comprehensive Overview:

"Five Main Phases of Paul's Life" The following chronology is based on a combination of evidence from Paul's own letters and from the Acts of the Apostles, since neither gives us a complete picture, and there are some points of tension between them. (See the maps in the back of any good Study Bible; see also my New Testament Geography page for more background on the Roman PROVINCES and Capital Cities).

    0) Pre-Christian Phase (ca. 10-35 AD)
    1. Paul was a Jew born in Tarsus, the capital of CILICIA (Acts 9:11, 30; 11:25; 21:39), but possibly also lived and received part of his education in Jerusalem, "at the feet of Gamaliel" (Acts 22:3).
    2. He was a Hebrew, born of Hebrew parents (Phil 3:5; 2 Cor 11:22), but probably also a Roman citizen (Acts 22:25-29; 23:27)
    3. Thus he was bi-lingual (Aramaic/Hebrew and Greek) and bi-cultural (Jewish and Hellenistic Greek), making him an ideal "transition figure" for the spread of early Christianity from its beginnings in Israel to the rest of the Roman empire.
    4. He was raised as a Pharisee, and was very zealous for the Jewish Torah & Traditions (Phil 3:5; Acts 23:6-9; 26:5).
    5. He begins persecuting the followers of Jesus (Gal 1:13-14; Phil 3:5-6; 1 Cor 15:9; Acts 7:58; 8:1; 9:1-2; 22:3-5; 26:4-12).


    1) First Phase of His New Christian Life - in the EAST (ca. 35-49 AD)

    1. Jesus "reveals" himself to Paul (traditionally called Paul's "conversion") while Paul is traveling on the road to Damascus in southern SYRIA (Gal 1:11-12, 15-16; 1 Cor 15:8-10; Acts 9:3-30; 22:6-21; 26:12-18 - for these texts, see below).
    2. Paul begins preaching around Arabia, Damascus, Syria, and Cilicia, despite some opposition (Gal 1:17-24; 2 Cor 11:23-33).
    3. He is the assistant to Barnabas on a first missionary journey; both of them were commissioned by the church of <>Antioch in Northern SYRIA (Acts 13-14).
    4. "Council of Jerusalem" (ca. 49 AD; Gal 2:1-10; Acts 15 - note that many scholars think this council was later, ca. 51).


    2) Early Independent Missionary Phase - in MACEDONIA & ACHAIA (ca. 50-52 AD)

    1. Paul breaks with Barnabas due to the "Incident at Antioch" (contrast Gal 2:11-14 with Acts 15:36-41).
    2. He travels with Silas & Timothy through ASIA and crosses over to MACEDONIA, where they establish small Christian churches, esp. in Philippi & Thessalonica, possibly also in Beroea (Acts 16:1-17:15).
    3. After getting kicked out of one Macedonian city after another, they go down to ACHAIA; Paul briefly visits Athens, but his preaching is not too successful there (Acts 17:16-34).
    4. They move on to <>Corinth, the capital of ACHAIA, and stay there for over 18 months (Acts 18:11, 18); they meet Prisca & Aquila in Corinth soon after Emperor Claudius had expelled Jews from Rome in 49 AD (Acts 18:2).
    5. Paul is brought to trial before the Proconsul Gallio (Acts 18:12-17), who was in Achaia only in 51-52 AD.; this fact gives us the only fixed date in the chronology of Paul's life, from which all other dates are calculated backward or forward.
    6. Paul & his companions write 1 Thess (and probably 2 Thess) from Corinth (see 1 Thess 3:1-6).


    3) Mature Missionary Leadership Phase - in ASIA (Minor) (ca. 53-57 AD)

    1. Paul travels through Asia, then to Syria (including brief visits to Jerusalem and Antioch), and back again to <>Ephesus, the capital of ASIA (Acts 18:18-19:41).
    2. He remains in Ephesus for at least 27 months, probably longer, preaching and strengthening the churches (Acts 19:8, 10, 22); Ephesus becomes his "missionary headquarters" with more and more associates over time.
    3. He travels personally and sends & receives messengers and letters back and forth from Ephesus to Macedonia, Corinth, other parts of Asia, etc. (1 Cor 16:5-12; 2 Cor 8-9; Phil 2:19-30; 4:10-20).
    4. He and his associates found other Christian communities in and around Asia Minor, e.g. Epaphroditus establishes a church in Colossae (Col 1:7).
    5. He encounters opposition from Jews and Gentiles, and is blamed for a riot caused by some silversmiths in Ephesus (since Paul preached against the "idolatry" of worshipping pagan gods; see Acts 19:26); he probably spends some time in prison there.
    6. Paul & his companions write 1 Cor, 2 Cor, Phil, Phlm, and probably Gal from Ephesus (see 1Cor 15:32; 16:8; 16:19).


    4) Final Missionary Travel Phase - to the WEST (ca. 58-62/64 AD)

    1. Paul wants to go West to Rome and Spain, but first to collect & deliver money for poor Christians in Jerusalem (1 Cor 16:1-4; Rom 15:22-32; Acts 19:21); he stays in Corinth three more months (Acts 20:3), and writes Rom from there (Rom 16).
    2. Paul and some associates deliver this collection to Jerusalem; soon he is arrested in the Temple (Acts 20-21).
    3. Paul is held under arrest for about two years in Caesarea; at his trial he appeals to Caesar and is taken to <>Rome, where he remains under house-arrest for another two years (Acts 22-28); possibly writes Col from prison in Caesarea (or later from Rome).
    4. We cannot be sure what happened next, since nothing else is written in Acts: either he was tried, found innocent and released, in which case he might have gone to preach in Spain, as he had planned; or he was tried, found guilty, and executed.
    5. Early Christian tradition agrees Paul was executed during the reign of Emperor Nero; but we cannot be sure whether it was at the end of his first Roman imprisonment (62 AD), or after his return from Spain (64 AD), since his death is not recorded in Acts.

X) After Paul's Death - his legacy continues (60's -90's and beyond)

  1. Paul's associates continue to preach, gain new converts, build up Christian communities, address problems, write letters, etc.
  2. 1 Tim, 2 Tim, Tit, and Eph are probably pseudepigraphic, i.e. letters written by his followers in his name after his death.
  3. Ephesus and Colossae remain strong centers of Pauline-style Christianity, possibly led by Timothy and Onesimus, respectively.
  4. Someone begins collecting (and editing) Paul's letters (cf. 2Pet 3:15-16); by the end of the first century, about 10 letters are circulating together (not yet 1&2 Tim, Tit), with Ephesians possibly functioning as an introduction or "cover letter."
  5. Eventually, thirteen different letters attributed to Paul are recognized as "canonical" (accepted as part of the NT).
  6. Other legends of Paul develop and are recorded in non-canonical works, e.g. the "Acts of Paul" and the "Acts of Paul and Thecla"

Compare this chronology also with that of Pheme Perkins (Reading the NT, 139), and/or with William Baird's article on "Paul" (HCBD, 814-22).



Paul's Conversion/Revelation on the Road to Damascus

Paul's Own Words:

"For I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel that was proclaimed by me is not of human origin; / for I did not receive it from a human source, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. / You have heard, no doubt, of my earlier life in Judaism. I was violently persecuting the church of God and was trying to destroy it. / I advanced in Judaism beyond many among my people of the same age, for I was far more zealous for the traditions of my ancestors. / But when God, who had set me apart before I was born and called me through his grace, was pleased / to reveal his Son to me, so that I might proclaim him among the Gentiles, I did not confer with any human being, / nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were already apostles before me, but I went away at once into Arabia, and afterwards I returned to Damascus. / Then after three years I did go up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days; / but I did not see any other apostle except James the Lord's brother." (Gal 1:11-19)

"Last of all, as to one untimely born, he [Jesus] appeared also to me. / For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. / But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me has not been in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them--though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me." (1 Cor 15:8-10)

"This is the reason that I Paul am a prisoner for Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles--/ for surely you have already heard of the commission of God's grace that was given me for you, / and how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I wrote above in a few words." (Eph 3:1-3, probably deutero-Pauline)

It is necessary to boast; nothing is to be gained by it, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. / I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows. / And I know that such a person--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows-- / was caught up into Paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat." (2Cor 12:1-4, probably referring to himself, but maybe to a different later "revelation")

The Three Accounts in Acts:
 

Acts 9:3-30
Luke's Initial Narrative Account
Acts 22:6-21
Paul's Speech to the Jews in Jerusalem
Acts 26:12-18
Paul' Defense before King Agrippa

9:1 Meanwhile Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 9:2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any who belonged to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

9:3 Now as he was going along and approaching Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 9:4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" 9:5 He asked, "Who are you, Lord?" The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 9:6 But get up and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do." 9:7 The men who were traveling with him stood speechless because they heard the voice but saw no one. 9:8 Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; so they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 

9:9 For three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank. 9:10 Now there was a disciple in Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, "Ananias." He answered, "Here I am, Lord." 9:11 The Lord said to him, "Get up and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul. At this moment he is praying, 9:12 and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight." 9:13 But Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints in Jerusalem; 9:14 and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who invoke your name." 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is an instrument whom I have chosen to bring my name before Gentiles and kings and before the people of Israel; 9:16 I myself will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name." 9:17 So Ananias went and entered the house. He laid his hands on Saul and said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on your way here, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 9:18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and his sight was restored. Then he got up and was baptized, 9:19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength. 

For several days he was with the disciples in Damascus, 9:20 and immediately he began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, saying, "He is the Son of God." 9:21 All who heard him were amazed and said, "Is not this the man who made havoc in Jerusalem among those who invoked this name? And has he not come here for the purpose of bringing them bound before the chief priests?" 9:22 Saul became increasingly more powerful and confounded the Jews who lived in Damascus by proving that Jesus was the Messiah. 9:23 After some time had passed, the Jews plotted to kill him, 9:24 but their plot became known to Saul. They were watching the gates day and night so that they might kill him; 9:25 but his disciples took him by night and let him down through an opening in the wall, lowering him in a basket. 9:26 When he had come to Jerusalem, he attempted to join the disciples; and they were all afraid of him, for they did not believe that he was a disciple. 9:27 But Barnabas took him, brought him to the apostles, and described for them how on the road he had seen the Lord, who had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had spoken boldly in the name of Jesus. 9:28 So he went in and out among them in Jerusalem, speaking boldly in the name of the Lord. 9:29 He spoke and argued with the Hellenists; but they were attempting to kill him. 9:30 When the believers learned of it, they brought him down to Caesarea and sent him off to Tarsus.

22:3 "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, educated strictly according to our ancestral law, being zealous for God, just as all of you are today. 22:4 I persecuted this Way up to the point of death by binding both men and women and putting them in prison, 22:5 as the high priest and the whole council of elders can testify about me. From them I also received letters to the brothers in Damascus, and I went there in order to bind those who were there and to bring them back to Jerusalem for punishment.

22:6 "While I was on my way and approaching Damascus, about noon a great light from heaven suddenly shone about me. 22:7 I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?' 22:8 I answered, 'Who are you, Lord?' Then he said to me, 'I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you are persecuting.' 22:9 Now those who were with me saw the light but did not hear the voice of the one who was speaking to me. 22:10 I asked, 'What am I to do, Lord?' The Lord said to me, 'Get up and go to Damascus; there you will be told everything that has been assigned to you to do.' 22:11 Since I could not see because of the brightness of that light, those who were with me took my hand and led me to Damascus. 

22:12 "A certain Ananias, who was a devout man according to the law and well spoken of by all the Jews living there, 22:13 came to me; and standing beside me, he said, 'Brother Saul, regain your sight!' In that very hour I regained my sight and saw him. 22:14 Then he said, 'The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear his own voice; 22:15 for you will be his witness to all the world of what you have seen and heard. 22:16 And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.' 22:17 "After I had returned to Jerusalem and while I was praying in the temple, I fell into a trance 22:18 and saw Jesus saying to me, 'Hurry and get out of Jerusalem quickly, because they will not accept your testimony about me.' 22:19 And I said, 'Lord, they themselves know that in every synagogue I imprisoned and beat those who believed in you. 22:20 And while the blood of your witness Stephen was shed, I myself was standing by, approving and keeping the coats of those who killed him.' 22:21 Then he said to me, 'Go, for I will send you far away to the Gentiles.'"

26:4 "All the Jews know my way of life from my youth, a life spent from the beginning among my own people and in Jerusalem. 26:5 They have known for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that I have belonged to the strictest sect of our religion and lived as a Pharisee...
26:9 "Indeed, I myself was convinced that I ought to do many things against the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 26:10 And that is what I did in Jerusalem; with authority received from the chief priests, I not only locked up many of the saints in prison, but I also cast my vote against them when they were being condemned to death. 26:11 By punishing them often in all the synagogues I tried to force them to blaspheme; and since I was so furiously enraged at them, I pursued them even to foreign cities.

26:12 "With this in mind, I was traveling to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests, 26:13 when at midday along the road, your Excellency, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and my companions. 26:14 When we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It hurts you to kick against the goads.' 26:15 I asked, 'Who are you, Lord?' The Lord answered, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 26:16 But get up and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you to serve and testify to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you. 26:17 I will rescue you from your people and from the Gentiles--to whom I am sending you 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.' 

26:19 "After that, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 26:20 but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout the countryside of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God and do deeds consistent with repentance.

 

http://catholic-resources.org/Bible/Pauline_Chronology.htm

As you can see, BMZ, in Acts 9:7 there WERE witnesses to Paul's conversion.

God's Peace and Understanding.



Edited by Patty
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 January 2007 at 8:06am

Patty,

From you: "I think you need to sit down and re-read the four Gospels, BMZ.  Jesus did speak about the same salvation as Paul reinforced in the verses of his many books.  Jesus also spoke very specifically about sins, particular sins.....ALL sins.  Any act which breaks a commandment is a grave sin, and that covers all sins.  Jesus did mention these of course."

Patty, every prophet spoke about sins. I was referring to the "sin theory" which says Jesus paid with his life for our sins, propagated by Paul and the salvation as Paul saw it based on the death of Jesus on cross.

Paul made it very easy for the Gentiles and all they had to do was to believe in salvation by just believing in Jesus only and bypassing everythingelse and God Almighty.

BMZ 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AnnieTwo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 January 2007 at 8:39am
Originally posted by bmzsp bmzsp wrote:

Patty,

From you: "I think you need to sit down and re-read the four Gospels, BMZ.  Jesus did speak about the same salvation as Paul reinforced in the verses of his many books.  Jesus also spoke very specifically about sins, particular sins.....ALL sins.  Any act which breaks a commandment is a grave sin, and that covers all sins.  Jesus did mention these of course."

Patty, every prophet spoke about sins. I was referring to the "sin theory" which says Jesus paid with his life for our sins, propagated by Paul and the salvation as Paul saw it based on the death of Jesus on cross.



BMZ,

Compare:

Matthew 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.�

With Isaiah 53.

11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
      By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
      For He shall bear their iniquities.
       12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
      And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
      Because He poured out His soul unto death,
      And He was numbered with the transgressors,
      And He bore the sin of many,
      And made intercession for the transgressors.

This is not about Paul; it is about the prophecy of the Messiah Jesus.

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

Paul made it very easy for the Gentiles and all they had to do was to believe in salvation by just believing in Jesus only and bypassing everythingelse and God Almighty.


Easy?  You don't know much about what the New Testament teaches and what Jesus taught, do you?

14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Patty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 January 2007 at 9:24am

Hi BMZ!  You said the following:

"I was referring to the "sin theory" which says Jesus paid with his life for our sins, propagated by Paul and the salvation as Paul saw it based on the death of Jesus on cross."

These are Jesus' own words regarding his upcoming death on the cross, and the reason(s) for it:

The Savior speaks as follows: I lay down my life for the sheep, and I know them (John 10:15, 27) 

My command is this: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends (John 15:12-13).

Matthew 26:27-28  Then He took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. [28] This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

God's Peace!

Patty

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Servetus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 January 2007 at 12:53pm

Frater BMZ (you are quoted below),

Quote:
Everytime, I discuss the Jewish Holy Scriptures or the Christian Old Testament with my Christian friends, I am always told that the past scriptures are full of prophecies about Jesus and that is where we are supposed to look for him as he had been foretold in almost every chapter, Isaiah in particular.

They are; it is; and he had.  Unless, that is, the New Testament writings are just a sort of rather complex (a-hem) �vaticinium ex eventu,� as many a Rationalist, failed seminarian and occasional Muslim has argued.  Standby, here's a little smiley face:

At any rate, the author of St. John�s Gospel (5:39) has Jesus say, to incredulous Jews: Search the [OT] scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.�  He also then explains why some might fail to find him in that process.

Quote:
Of course, when we read the Jewish Holy Scriptures, we do not find Jesus at all.

Of course, neither did the Ethiopian eunuch until the Spirit directed St. Philip to him (Acts 8:27-39) to show otherwise.    

Quote:
My question: Is there a single prophecy about Paul in the Jewish Holy Scriptures or the Christian Old Testament? If the NT had to have so much material and teaching from Paul who overran Jesus in teaching, there should have been some prophecies about Paul too. I find nothing.

I will say that these two verses come immediately to mind as distinct possibilities.  Please be forewarned, though, that I might be unduly influenced by having recently (Christmas Day) listened to the complete version of Handel�s 'Messiah':)

The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined. (Isaiah 9:2)�

�I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; (Isaiah 42:6)�

I would suggest that St. Paul, as an admittedly at times to my mind problematic Apostle to the Gentiles, was one of the primary means by which the above two and other prophesies were (at least in one way) realized.  We Gentiles, in considerable part thanks to the evangelizing efforts of St. Paul, have seen a �great light.�

Best regards,

Serv



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AnnieTwo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 January 2007 at 2:59pm
Originally posted by Patty Patty wrote:

Hi BMZ!  You said the following:

"I was referring to the "sin theory" which says Jesus paid with his life for our sins, propagated by Paul and the salvation as Paul saw it based on the death of Jesus on cross."

These are Jesus' own words regarding his upcoming death on the cross, and the reason(s) for it:

The Savior speaks as follows: I lay down my life for the sheep, and I know them (John 10:15, 27) 

My command is this: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends (John 15:12-13).

Matthew 26:27-28  Then He took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. [28] This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

God's Peace!



I think it is obvious that BMZ has either not read the New Testment or has read it and has not understood it.  The other alternative is that he cannot accept what it says and still remain a Muslim.

In my opinion he is embarrassed that Jesus appointed Paul (may peace be upon his name) one of His apostles and Jesus did not appoint Muhammad an Apostle or any prophet to come after Jesus.

The truth be known no prophet was to come after Jesus.  The Advocate is the Holy Spirit of God.  There was no need for another prophet to come after Jesus.

We, as Christians, can only hope that BMZ and other Muslims will read the New Testament and the Gospel of Jesus with complete understanding and if they do they will know the truth.

We must pray for BMZ and the Muslims.


14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Servetus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 January 2007 at 4:54pm

Annie (to Patty) wrote:
I think it is obvious that BMZ has either not read the New Testment or has read it and has not understood it.  The other alternative is that he cannot accept what it says and still remain a Muslim.

With all due respect, it seems to me that there are other logical possibilities, Annie, and, though you weren�t talking in this case to me, I think it best if we not pigeon-hole BMZ or anyone else for that matter.  There are, at any rate, different degrees of �understanding� of the New Testament, a fact proved well enough by the mountain of written Commentaries which purport to explain, or at least to explicate it.   


Quote:
In my opinion he is embarrassed that Jesus appointed Paul (may peace be upon his name) one of His apostles and Jesus did not appoint Muhammad an Apostle or any prophet to come after Jesus.

 

In my opinion, this is nonsense and is little more than a side-swipe at BMZ.  You should be embarrassed for having posted it      


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The truth be known no prophet was to come after Jesus.

 

Please do consider telling that to Brother R. G. Stair, my favorite short-wave radio evangelist.

 

 

Serv



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Patty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 January 2007 at 5:08pm

Annie said:

"We must pray for BMZ and the Muslims."

We must pray for everyone, "unceasingly", as Christ commanded us. 

Catholics are a "different" sort.  The following is what we believe regarding non-Christians:

The fate of non-Catholics, as expressed at Vatican II:

bullet The "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church - Lumen Gentium" (1964) is one of many documents to come out of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council (often referred to as "Vatican II"). The Council was held in Rome between 1962 and 1965. Lumen Gentium" contains in its Chapter 1 an essay on "The Mystery of the church." Sections 14 to 16 describe the potential for salvation of:
bullet Followers of the Catholic Church,
bullet Members of other Christian denominations, and
bullet Believers of non-Christian religions. 5

The language is difficult to follow for a lay person. However, an "Assessment of this Council" was written "as an AID to study by Catholic Students of the Second Vatican Council. They contain material, some written in a journalistic style, for the American reader." In the section "The Constitution of the Church" the assessment reads:

"The Catholic Church professes that it is the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church of Christ; this it does not and could not deny. But in its Constitution the Church now solemnly acknowledges that the Holy Ghost is truly active in the churches and communities separated from itself. To these other Christian Churches the Catholic Church is bound in many ways: through reverence for God's word in the Scriptures; through the fact of baptism; through other sacraments which they recognize."

5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church." 6

This statement would seem to include the possibility that seekers after God may attain salvation, even though they have not concluded that God exists. Presumably, the authors of this document define "God" in Roman Catholic terms as a super-human intelligence and personality with specific attributes, such as being omnipotent, omniscient, omnibeneficient, omnipresent, etc. This statement indicates that even some Agnostics and Atheists could be saved and attain heaven, if they sincerely sought this Christian God.

 

I love your posts, Annie!  Very interesting and accurate.

God's Peace!

Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.
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