BIBLE:NOBODY CAN DIE FOR ANOTHER'S SINS

Mahdi Said

Past tense (Isaiah 53 )

My Reply

Yes. This is interesting. Firstly, these conditions in Isaiah 52 and 53 were not fulfilled in any Jewish figure before Isaiah wrote the verse. So who is it about?

Secondly notice the vision actually starts in the future tense in 52:13 and then moves again in the future tense in 52.10-12 and then past tense again in 53 and future tense again at the end of 53.

This moving of tenses is referred to as �prophetic perfect� and is a well-known feature in the prophetic books of the Tanach (Old Testament).  The reason for using the �prophetic perfect� can be understood in that a prophet can have a vision that is so real that he describes it as he sees it with his own eyes as if it has already happened, using the past tense instead of the future.

The prophets often move between the past and the future tenses while describing the same event. See, for example, Jeremiah 4.22 -26 (describing the devastation in the past tense) and Jeremiah 4:27-28 (using the future tense).

Isaiah was a prophet, and would have been understood at the time to be describing future events despite his use of the perfect tense. For example, Micaiah the prophet spoke in the past tense, in 1 Kings 22:17 about the death of Ahab, which Ahab recognized it as a prediction of the future. As I said, this was common prophetic style.

This is indicative of the timeless quality of the promises. It is eternal. Isaiah is recording it as both a past agreement and a future fulfillment. Prophecy can refer to the past, present or future. A Biblical prophet may speak in the past tense, but the pronouncement can apply also to the future.

Other examples for this  can also be found.  The Bible says that we have been saved (Ephesians 2:8), that we are being saved (1 Corinthians 1:18), and that we will be saved (1 Corinthians 3:15). Even so, there is a sense in which we have been healed, are being healed, and one day will be healed.

God sees time as one piece ("I am ... the beginning and the end"), while we humans see it as yesterday, today, and tomorrow. God�s ultimate healing is called �resurrection,� and it is a glorious promise to every one.

You had me at His blood was payment to Satans legitimate right but also the redemption and remission of sin. payment to satan? are you kidding me? C'mon now, S.E.R.I.O.U.S.L.Y? i thought satan's payment was eternity in hell.

My Reply

Yes you are correct Satans payment is eternity in hell. But that is not Gods will for humanity. Why do you think the world is as evil as it is? Obviously Satan has influence and power ? If you read Genesis and the outcome of Adam and Eve coming under Satans influence then its obvious.

Ephesians  6:12 makes it clear that Satan rules the earth.

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 

And Acts 26.18 also mentions the power of Satan -

to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God,

Mahdi Said

Ezekiel Chapter 18 was what you quoted. It is about individuals being accountable for their own sin.

exactly. so no need for Jesus. stop trying to stick him with the bill of your transgressions.

My Reply

Once again you are taking one verse out of context from the whole Bible. Everyone will be accountable for their own sin on the Day of Judgment. But if you read the whole Bible rather tan just taking one verse in isolation and out of context you will see that God has provided  a way out through The Messiah Christ Jesus. Read the whole Bible. This is a bad habit of yours.

Honeto Said

Animal sacrifice according to the Final Testament of God,  the Quran does not pay for sins. And I believe that is the final word for me.

 We live in time that is under the jurisdiction of the Quran, not Gospel, not Torah. And apart from that their (Torah and Gospel's)authenticity and reliability as an unaltered word of God is questionable.

My Reply

There is only one Final testament and that is what Christ Jesus the Messiah accomplished on the cross.

You say the Torah and Injils authenticity and reliability as an unaltered word of God is questionable. Ive argued this one many times and no Muslim I have discussed this with has been able to prove this is the case. I have never received an adequate rebuttal to my proof that the Bible is reliable.

What is your jurisdiction of the Quaran based on ? Ive never discussed with a Muslim who has been able to answer the lack of authenticity and reliability regarding the Quran in the context of its scientific absurdities, contradictions, repetitions and the fact that most Muslims cant even read Arabic to be able to read the �word of God�.

Problems found with the earliest Quaran found in Sanaa Yemen in the 1970s is evidence that the Quaran is a man made document.

Honeto Said

Even for those who want to take things comparatively the Quran's account still prevails.

"It is neither their flesh nor their blood that reaches Allah; it is your piety that reaches Him." (Qur'an 22:37)"

My Reply

Quoting the Quran means nothing to me. It is a later message that does not conform to the Torah and Injil which are more ancient and credible to its roots. The Quran is nothing but an arrogant and ignorant upstart not even related to the ancient family of prophesy. Your piety can never be good enough to meet Gods standards.

Honeto Said

Don't forget that in the Gospel Jesus is quoted to have said that if your hand commits a sin, cut it off. It will be better for you so your whole body wouldn't have to be thrown into the fire. He could have said what you say, to shed the blood of an animal for your sins, but he did not.

My Reply

The Old Testament and Injil are clear. What are necessary are blood sacrifice and after that a heart that is soft and open to God. Behavior in keeping with this is obviously necessary as the verse about the hand illustrates. But it is the blood sacrifice that continues to atone for sin in an ongoing way. And Jesus did say blood sacrifice is the way when he  raised the cup of wine at his last Passover meal and said "this is my blood for you ". Your piety will never be enough.