The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is |
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Abu Loren
Senior Member Joined: 29 June 2012 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1646 |
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Well Sheikh TG12345 now we know why you are here on this forum. You probably have never read the translation of the Holy Qur'an nor the Hadiths yet you want to preach Islam to Muslims. That's rich. If that is indeed your intention then you can get lost.
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TG12345
Senior Member Male Joined: 16 December 2012 Status: Offline Points: 1146 |
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Peace be upon you as well, Nausheen. A Muslim friend of mine who I will not name because I have not obtained his permission does not believe it is applicable today. Here is an article written by a Muslim who states that the death penalty for apostasy is against the teachings of the Quran. He does not state that the death penalty for apostasy applied only during the time of Muhammad, but rather, the only apostates who were to be executed were those who were fighting Muslims. According to the author, those apostates who kept on friendly terms with Muslims and those who were neutral towards them were to be left alone. http://www.islamicperspectives.com/Apostasy1.htm HE DEATH PENALTY FOR APOSTASY CONFLICTS WITH THE QUR`AN The evidence against any legally prescribed penalty for apostasy in Islam does not rest only on the fact that the Qur`an does not prescribe any such penalty while referring to the subject of apostasy many times. We can go further and state that:
a) There is no mandatory death penalty in the Qur`an for any crime.
b) The death penalty for apostasy in fact conflicts with the Qur`an. The truth of the above statements can be seen by examining the verses: 5:32-33, 45, 2:178 and 4:88-91.
Qur`an 5:32-33, 45, 2:178
In 5:32, after relating the story of the murder of Habil by his brother Qabil, God says:
In the context of an emphasis on preserving the life of each and every individual the above verse mentions only two crimes for which a person can be killed:
1) Murdering another human being; 2)
Spreading
mischief (fasad) in the land. At first sight the words �seize them and kill them wherever you find them� would suggest that they are to be killed. But this is quickly seen to be wrong if we read the next two verses:
These verses clarify the command �seize them and kill them�. The apostates who rejected Islam by failing to emigrate as commanded by God are divided into three categories:
1) Those who ally themselves with a group with whom Muslims have a peace treaty; 2) Those who want to keep neutrality, committing themselves to peace with both the Muslims and their own people who had not accepted Islam; 3) Those who provide no real guarantee of peace to Muslims and by all indications ally themselves with non-believers engaged in hostilities towards Islam.
The
first two types of apostates are to be left in peace while the third one is to
be treated like any non-believers in a state of war: they are to be seized and
killed wherever they are found. Notice that the Qur`an uses the words �God has opened no way for you against them�
in connection with the apostates of the first two types. This means that the
Qur`an actually prohibits killing those apostates who want to live in peaceful
terms with the Muslims. The anti-Christian website "answering Christianity"- which I actually have a very low opinion of because of its highly insulting content- also challenges this belief. The authors state that apostates were killed during the time of Muhammad only because they were joining forces that were militarily fighting Muslims. 4- The Sayings of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, regarding killing the renegades came when Islam was partial and the Muslims were dealing with wars all the time. As I said above, if the person wasn't with the Muslims, then he was certainly with his people, the pagans and the other non-Muslims, and he would've then had to join the evil forces to fight the Muslims. So the case back then was different than today. http://www.answering-christianity.com/apostates.htm
You just admitted that Afghanistan is not an Islamic state. Some would argue that its puppet rulers who are helping maintain a US and NATO occupation are the opposite of what an Islamic government would be. The high corruption also makes me question how Islamic the government there is. Is it possible that Afghanistan's implementation of the death penalty for apostasy (or effort to, since the Christian convert was allowed to flee) is based on a misunderstanding of Islam?
Sorry, what did you say I was right about? That killing apostates is contradictory to the claim there is no compulsion in Islam? That it is a form of weakness to punish people for leaving one's faith? That it is based on an inability to convince people to return and a fear that others will also leave?
I understand, but why is there the need to sentence or judge them at all? Why can't you leave that to God? Two friends of mine over the past few years left Christianity. It was a very sad thing for me (FYI they became atheists, not Muslims). I feel sad that they have rejected God, however I still keep on good terms with them and witness to them, and pray for them. I would never ever even think of harming them, and would die rather than allow someone to harm them. Edited by TG12345 - 12 January 2013 at 1:16pm |
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Caringheart
Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
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Right... fear that the religion can not stand on its own... much like what TG has stated in his views. If you join something under false pretenses should you then be held to it? and yet you are. When you discover this truth which you did not know beforehand, it is too late for you. Because Islam must build its power by locking people into it. Surah 4 is from the Medinian period. I think truth should be made very clear and known... all truth. Surah 4:89 basically says not only can you kill any person who does not believe in Islam, but you have an obligation to if you consider yourself part of the faith of Islam, thus abrogating the "no compulsion in religion" which came from the earlier Meccan period when Muhammad thought people would hear his word and willingly join with him. So who is being misled, who is being deceived into thinking that they serve God? Does it serve the Creator for His creation to be killing one another? to take away all chance of redemption for those who are lost? Did Jesus not come to seek and save the lost? to bring all to repentance? Did not the Creator want to save His creation? or does He want to throw them all into hell fire? Salaam, Caringheart Again, this is not a statement against muslims, just the religion. I believe there are many wonderful muslim people who truly wish to be honoring to God. Edited by Caringheart - 12 January 2013 at 11:25am |
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Abu Loren
Senior Member Joined: 29 June 2012 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1646 |
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Narrated `Abdullah: Allah's Messenger (
Mu�adh bin Jabal (RAA) narrated - concerning a man
who embraced Islam and then turned to Judaism (i.e. apostated), �I shall not
sit down until he is killed. That is the Command of Allah and His Messenger,
and he gave an order that he must be killed and so he was.� Agreed upon. In a
version by Abu Dawud, �He was given a chance to repent and retrun to Islam but
he refused.� Muhsin Khan They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliya' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad SAW). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them. 4:89 From the Hadiths it is clear that the judgement is for all time. The reason, I think, is because an apostate will sow discord amongst the believers and people will not be committed to their faith. Of course there are apostates in Islam, it's just that they don't go around publishing that fact. |
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Nausheen
Moderator Group Female Joined: 10 January 2001 Status: Offline Points: 4251 |
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Walaikum assalam TG. I did not speak of myself when I said the punishemnt is a death penalty, rather how the sharia sees it. Do you have references from those who said this was implemented only in the time of the prophet pbuh? Why do you think Afghanistan can implement sharia rulings - its not an islamic state, fully, rather they are having democracy - am not sure of the exact politics there.
You are right. I dont understand why the death penalty. Although the people who do not declare themselves as apostates are to be given the benefit of doubt. A person who declares publicly,should be counseled, sent out of the state, and given time to reconsider etc, etc ... there is a whole protocol, I dont remember exactly, but do know that its not a simple matter to be judged or even sentenced. |
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<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
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Nausheen
Moderator Group Female Joined: 10 January 2001 Status: Offline Points: 4251 |
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Would you care to discuss any of your fears with us. In a frank setting, where we do not know or judge you personally, but may be we can help you a bit. Nobody is forcing anything on you. Just for you to make better sense of things, would you like to give it a try. |
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<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
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Caringheart
Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
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Greetings again Nausheen,
"Punishment of apostacy is indeed a death sentence. "Have you ever thought about, wondered, or considered, "Why"? . . . . take more than just a few minutes to consider that... . . . . People like to say that Islam is a religion of logic and reason. What is the logic and reason for killing people who exercise the free will given to them by the Creator Himself? Islam is supposed to be against oppression. Isn't this oppression? So what place does this idea have in God's plan? How did it get into the scriptures? (Is it in the scriptures or just in the Hadiths?) Does this really come from the Creator? (Whether it does or does not, Islam holds you to it.) If God is saying that you are condemning yourself to an eternity in hell... to death eternal, rather than life eternal, that is logical. That God is saying humans shall take away your life for Me, and take away all chance of redemption, that is not logical or reasonable. So the thing is, with the scriptures, is that they can hold you to something God never intended. They can be a deception to lead you into your own damnation. I think TG makes a good statement. I am not speaking against muslims, in fact I have both respect and concern for them, and all people. Salaam, Caringheart Edited by Caringheart - 11 January 2013 at 7:24pm |
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W.S.
Guest Group Joined: 14 August 2011 Status: Offline Points: 86 |
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Perhaps it is so.
Not so much anymore.
I haven't really been listening to an Arabic recitation of the Quran, but I guess that in combination with something else that is fascinating, the sound of someone reciting the Quran in Arabic can have a certain effect. Like, if you see a big, beautiful mosque or a community in a Muslim country on TV, and you hear a recitation in the background. I walked passed the door of the home a Muslim family not so long ago, and you could hear that they were listening to a recitation, and I remember kind of wishing that that attractive wife in there was my wife, and that those kids in there were my kids.
I think I do understand the meaning of salat. But there are too many things that I don't heartily believe in, even if I want to, and I won't fake it. This does not mean, however, that I see myself as having left Islam, or that I see myself as a case forever lost. |
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