CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING?

islamispeace wrote: In any case, the punishment of the Bani Qurayza pales in comparison to the actual genocide in the Bible.

I think the only difference is that the Jewish history is honest about its history and does nothing to cover it up... as are the Christians honest about the despicable things done in the name of Christianity.

islamispeace wrote: On the other hand, the Canaanites had done nothing to the Israelites to be wiped off the face of the earth.

Agreed, but as you say, God's knows best...
and that is why God came with a new covenant to 'do a new thing'.


Edited by Caringheart - 02 December 2012 at 9:07pm

honeto wrote: Bunter,  if they are so bad, why are they there in the first place. According to your guys, Jesus is "love" and that he was with the father since the beginning so what was going on then, as these acts were actually quoted to have been directed by God as commands! And did not Jesus in the NT is quoted to have said that every iota of the law has to be fulfilled. And that he did not come to abolish but to fulfill, didn't he? Oh my..! Hasan

Greetings Hasan,

'They are in there' because the Jews do nothing to deny or hide their history.  For the rest, maybe you will have read my reply to islamispeace, above?

Peace to you,
CH

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Caringheart wrote: I think the only difference is that the Jewish history is honest about its history and does nothing to cover it up... as are the Christians honest about the despicable things done in the name of Christianity.

And Muslims don't?  As I said before, you know NOTHING about Islam except your own biased, preconceived fantasies. 

As it stands, not ONE Christian that has posted on this thread, including yourself, has yet to categorically condemn the baby-killing in the Bible.  You have all tried to dance around the issue, making contradictory statements and hypocritical comparisons.

Caringheart wrote: Agreed, but as you say, God's knows best... and that is why God came with a new covenant to 'do a new thing'.

 

Yes, God knows best.  And He knows that killing babies is evil.  He knows that He did not order such atrocious and monstrous crimes.  He knows that the Biblical stories of genocide are lies against Him written by blasphemers. 


Edited by islamispeace - 01 December 2012 at 11:50am

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Caringheart wrote: If you were quoting the quran, which verses were they?  It looked to me like you were quoting statements made by followers of Muhammad.

I quoted from both the Quran and the Sunnah.  Do you know their significance?

Caringheart wrote: Did I ever say I was not bothered by what Moses was ordered by God to do?  I was bothered that God would order Abraham to kill his long awaited son also.  But who am I?  Do I have the mind of God?  Am I the maker of all this creation to decide its fate?

And so, using this excuse, you basically wash your hands clean and cast the issue aside.  As I said before, people can use this excuse to justify any type of atrocious behavior, even (apparently) the slaughter of innocent children.  All rational people of faith would abhor your statement.  I certainly do. 

Caringheart wrote: Muhammad conquered anyone he deemed to be his enemy.  Only Muhammad says they were not innocent.  He was judge, jury and executioner.  I'll bet you those people felt they were innocent and undeserving of what they received at the hand of Muhammad.

And I suppose you will educate us and tell us the "real" story?  All I have read in your posts are your own ridiculous opinions with no supporting evidence. 

Tell us, teacher.  Were the people the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) saw as his enemies really innocent?  How so?  Why was he not justified in fighting against them and killing them?  Were Abu Jahl and Abu Lahab, the arch-persecutors of Muslims, really just two nice guys?

Caringheart wrote: Regarding the surah's that you quoted; Yes, there are certain surah's that I can get behind, but then there are others that contradict... and then there's that little problem of abrogation.

 

More vague and ignorant statements.  Care to elaborate?  Many ignorant non-Muslims, who have not even an iota of understanding on the issue of "abrogation", appeal to this phenomenon in order to justify their ignorance and bias.  If you were so interested in it, I would think that you would do research the topic using authentic Islamic sources to gain a thorough understanding of it.  But, no.  You would rather just appeal to your limited knowledge based on reading material from like-minded people and just make absurd  and vague statements.

Caringheart wrote: I mean this next question with all respect for I would like to know the answer... Where does the sharia teaching to cut off hands come from?  Is it from the Qur'an? You see, as I have said all along, the problem I have with Muhammad is that there is so much confusion that comes with his message.

Not that it has anything to do with this thread, but to answer your question, the punishment for cutting off hands is found in the Quran.  It is the punishment for thieves and robbers, although repentance is also accepted:

"As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.  But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." (5:38-39)

You complain of being "confused"?  How so?  What is so confusing?  The killing of babies does not confuse you, huh?

Caringheart wrote: Women and children were taken as slaves.

But before you were saying that the reason they were not killed was because Muhammad (pbuh) could get taxes from them.  When you were refuted for that ignorant statement, you changed gears and said "well, women and children were taken as slaves". 

Are you aware that Muhammad (pbuh) encouraged the freeing of slaves and their fair and humane treatment? 

"Narrated Abu Dhar: I asked the Prophet, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and to fight for His Cause." I then asked, "What is the best kind of manumission (of slaves)?" He replied, "The manumission of the most expensive slave and the most beloved by his master." I said, "If I cannot afford to do that?" He said, "Help the weak or do good for a person who cannot work for himself." I said, "If I cannot do that?" He said, "Refrain from harming others for this will be regarded as a charitable deed for your own good."" (Sahih Bukhari, Book 46, #694)

"Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Whoever manumits his share of a jointly possessed slave, it is imperative for him to get that slave manumitted completely by paying the remaining price, and if he does not have sufficient money to manumit him, then the price of the slave should be estimated justly, and he is to be allowed to work and earn the amount that will manumit him (without overburdening him)"." (Sahih Bukhari, Book 44, #672)

Caringheart wrote: It is because of my lack of ignorance, and my humility, that I do not claim to have all the answers.  Whom of us does?  But thanks for another attack on my personal character.  I do not accuse anyone of ignorance, do I?  Are we not all seeking after Truth?

If that was the case, then you would not be making the silly and ridiculous claims you have made about Islam and Muhammad (pbuh).  Instead of making false accusations as if they were true, why didn't you just say "I have heard such and such verse says such and such thing"?  Pleading ignorance after you have been thoroughly refuted just exposes you as biased individual.  Case in point:

Caringheart wrote: I could quote you the other surah's and see what order of abrogation they take, but I do not have the time for it.  There is the one 'seek them out wherever you may find them, lay in wait, and slay them'. So it depends on which surah's we choose to follow doesn't it?  Again, the confusion of Muhammad and his message.

If you are so interested in the "truth", why not just pick up a copy of the Quran or read it online.  Here is a website that has the Quran: http://www.searchtruth.com/list.php

Let's see the surah you refer to in the proper context:

"And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.  But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge." (9:3-6)

What is your problem with this surah?  Would you rather that the Muslims just had killed everyone off, you know like...cough...Moses?

Caringheart wrote: I have the solid evidence, which I once took the time to provide but they were never allowed to post so I quit investing the time.  I have done my homework.  I have studied.  I hope you can say the same.

 

Sure you do.  I doubt you have done your homework.  That is obvious from reading your posts.  You make asinine claims and then when you are refuted, you simply make another asinine claim and then say that you don't have all the answers.  Well of course you don't!  I already know that!  You don't have to tell me!

Caringheart wrote: I see you easily ignore this.

When did I ignore this?  Are you going to make me repeat myself?  I responded to your post about Luke 19:27.  Here is what I said:

The point is that this "New Covenant" has an expiration date.  After this, says the Bible, Jesus will revert to the old ways and will command his followers (which includes you) to kill all who reject him.  Therefore, this "love" you speak of is not for all times and it is conditional.

Do you understand?  Your "New Covenant" which you so proudly speak of will expire.  So, it is irrelevant what the Apostles did or did not do.  As far as they were concerned, when Jesus would come (in their lifetimes as far as they knew), he would start a bloodbath.  You know...murder and mayhem, like the Old Testament ways.

Caringheart wrote: Peace to you, and may we find common ground to respect one another and our individual beliefs.  Only when we meet our Maker will we Know. I will not choose belief without questioning for then it is too easy for the deceiver to lead on the way of sure death.

Your Maker gave you an intellect.  If you don't use it, you will have no excuse on the Day you meet him.  You are taking a big risk by consigning yourself to find out the truth only when you meet Him.  By that time, it will be far too late to change your mind and repent.  The truth is already in front of you.  You just choose not to acknowledge it.  In short, you have already been deceived. 


Edited by islamispeace - 01 December 2012 at 5:12pm