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Contracts & technical loopholes - what is
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Abu Loren View Drop Down
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Points: 1646 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Abu Loren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2012 at 2:54am
Originally posted by nospam001 nospam001 wrote:

Some time later(?) - but before S66 was revealed - the husband realised that there was in fact no binding commitment. Thus freed from any moral obligation he resumed relations with the same concubine, in secret. Things went smoothly until he was 'caught in the act' by one of his jealous wives. Damage control then required her silence. She duly swore she would keep the matter secret, but then broke her promise and told the other wives. As finally revealed, Sura 66 deals severely with gossiping and eavesdropping, but tacitly approves of the husband's duplicity, secrecy and attempted cover-up.

What's the confusion? The Prophet Pbuh) has been given special privileges thus the reason why Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala scolds the Prophet (pbuh) in saying "O Prophet why do you make unlawful what I have made lawful for you" (paraphrased).
 
The 'honeypot' scenario is also clearly explained in the Holy Qur'an.
 
As a side note : The Prophet indeed had his favourites, Zainab bint Jahsh and Aisha (Allah be pleased with them). This was not illegal in any sense of the word because the Prophet (pbuh) was given the freedom to do whatever he wanted. Some of the wives in understanding this gave up their visiting rights so that the could spend more time with them.
 
If you read his hadiths he constantly tells people that he is just a human being and he makes mistakes and has human desires just like you and me.
 
 
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nospam001 View Drop Down
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Points: 149 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nospam001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2012 at 3:57pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren Abu Loren wrote:

Stop beating around the bush and ask clearly and precisely what you want to know. I think I'm right in saying that Muslims at this forum will not be offended.

Prior to the revelation of Sura 66 the husband went to considerable lengths in order to appease his frustrated wives. He undertook to give equal attention to each in turn, and also to abstain from further relations with a particularly beautiful concubine, who was the focus of their jealousy. (Some 'G-rated' commentaries talk instead of a 'honey pot'. Either way makes little difference to the core principles involved.)

In making this concession he had unwittingly spurned the unique honour of conjugal privileges given to him (alone) in S33:50-51, thereby offending the giver. That was his only mistake, for which he receives a gentle reprimand.

Some time later(?) - but before S66 was revealed - the husband realised that there was in fact no binding commitment.  Thus freed from any moral obligation he resumed relations with the same concubine, in secret. Things went smoothly until he was 'caught in the act' by one of his jealous wives. Damage control then required her silence. She duly swore she would keep the matter secret, but then broke her promise and told the other wives. As finally revealed, Sura 66 deals severely with gossiping and eavesdropping, but tacitly approves of the husband's duplicity, secrecy and attempted cover-up.

Following an identical set of principles, the US Government now seeks to punish and make an example of Pvt Bradley Manning (for breaking an oath of secrecy) and Wikileaks (for incitement and spreading the secrets) while blatantly and shamelessly ignoring the much bigger moral issues - simply because the embarrassing facts were 'classified information' according to ... the US Government.

Supporters of the US say that's just an unavoidable part of being a world superpower. Even when you're the 'good guys', there will always be embarrassing facts that need to be kept from the people - and to think otherwise is just naive or st**id. Maybe the same is also true for a household comprising several wives. It would certainly explain a lot.
God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
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Friendship View Drop Down
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Assalamu alaika nospam001.

 

I thought you are referring to S.65.

Madinan verses refers to the life history /Sunna/Sharia/ of Muhammad Rasulullah. They have to be understood according to the way he explained them. No one has the authority to mutilate his explanation as such incidents or actions were witnessed by Allah and then commanded Muhammad on what to do. The Shari�a was not a cowboy action, a fairy tale, folk tales or something of amusement and play. It is only what Allah commanded Muhammad. Remember that homicide became a crime only after Abel killed Cain. I will try to explain to you briefly. However note that you did not mention the verses to be explained.

1.      The Shari�a of Muhammad was what Allah commanded him following his action. That action in most cases was never done by a prophet or messenger before him for Muhammad was guided by previous Shari'a.

2.      As exemplary to mankind all actions stem from him and thus the Shari�a. No one can claim inability to be guided on such trivial issues since Muhammad stood as a man created to obey Allah. (Unless scientists could be allowed to have a sample of the holy apostles DNA and then prove that we have a different gene that made us disobey Allah, no one has an excuse of disobeying Allah).

 With reference to 66:3, the Shari�a is on those practicing polygamy. That human nature stemmed from polygamy. It is a trivial issue (called lamama) that is forgiven by Allah on doing good deeds.The details are given Maududis, and Syed Qutb translations of the Qur�an. I am not a polygamist and as such I cannot elaborate on my personal experience. 
From this Shari'a wire tapping, eves dropping etc are not allowed. The case of Rupert Mudock proved the universality of the Shari'a of Muhammad.
Nospam001, it is high time YOU join your two daughters. You are causing an anguish on them. Please love them and show leniency. Why are you leaving them suspended in the air? Do you want them to fall down and break their bones? Who stopped the burying of the female infants? Think of your action towards your beautiful innocent female children! Any difference? Muhammad is certainly a mercy to you NOSPAM001.

Friendship.
 

Edited by Friendship - 20 October 2012 at 3:44am
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Abu Loren View Drop Down
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Points: 1646 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Abu Loren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2012 at 2:44am
Originally posted by nospam001 nospam001 wrote:

So far no-one has stepped forward to defend the moral correctness of the husband's actions. It seems like a very simple and clear-cut question, until one utters his name. That is when things suddenly get complicated, so I can totally understand people's difficulty with 'joining the dots'. Especially when we consider a few of the hadith that deal with untruthful behaviour, e.g. al-Bukhari, 33 & 1973.

As possible mitigating factors, it has been suggested above that perhaps the original 'promise' was made either 'lightly' (in jest) or under duress. Viewed in this way, the subterfuge that followed was a benevolent act, so that his dearest wife would be spared the unnecessary pain of feeling cheated.

I don't want to insult anyone by pointing to chapter and verse. If you find this approach too complicated then I suggest you choose a commentary of Sura 66 by any respected Muslim scholar, in any language. You'll soon have enough detail to fill in what I've left out. It's all in there, and the scholars evidently don't have a problem with it. This only reinforces the principle implied in the sura itself: that it doesn't matter what you say to your wife, if it stops her nagging. (But next time, be careful not to make a promise that is beyond your authority, okay?)

My daughters (both Muslims) have been taught there are no 'bad' questions. Is it really a 'silly game' for me to ask for clarification, on their behalf?


Stop beating around the bush and ask clearly and precisely what you want to know. I think I'm right in saying that Muslims at this forum will not be offended.
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nospam001 View Drop Down
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Points: 149 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nospam001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2012 at 8:53pm
So far no-one has stepped forward to defend the moral correctness of the husband's actions. It seems like a very simple and clear-cut question, until one utters his name. That is when things suddenly get complicated, so I can totally understand people's difficulty with 'joining the dots'. Especially when we consider a few of the hadith that deal with untruthful behaviour, e.g. al-Bukhari, 33 & 1973.

As possible mitigating factors, it has been suggested above that perhaps the original 'promise' was made either 'lightly' (in jest) or under duress. Viewed in this way, the subterfuge that followed was a benevolent act, so that his dearest wife would be spared the unnecessary pain of feeling cheated.

I don't want to insult anyone by pointing to chapter and verse. If you find this approach too complicated then I suggest you choose a commentary of Sura 66 by any respected Muslim scholar, in any language. You'll soon have enough detail to fill in what I've left out. It's all in there, and the scholars evidently don't have a problem with it. This only reinforces the principle implied in the sura itself: that it doesn't matter what you say to your wife, if it stops her nagging. (But next time, be careful not to make a promise that is beyond your authority, okay?)

My daughters (both Muslims) have been taught there are no 'bad' questions. Is it really a 'silly game' for me to ask for clarification, on their behalf?
God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
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abuayisha View Drop Down
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Points: 5105 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abuayisha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2012 at 2:35pm
Well certainly "simple" is relative, anyway, perhaps our Prophet's response was because of collusion, however there are several other instances of acts of jealously from his wife that he seemed to have taken lightly and in good cheer. I think with respect to rebuke and feeling cheated, men and women are equals.
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nothing View Drop Down
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Points: 416 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nothing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2012 at 2:09pm
Surah 66 giving us picture about his life with his wives. Here we can see that Muhammad as normal human with weakness toward his wives, in contrast what we have been hearing all the time that he was tough and dominant husband. Read this in conjunction with this verse below and you will see the picture better.

"And you will never be able to be equal [in feeling] between wives, even if you should strive [to do so]. So do not incline completely [toward one] and leave another hanging. And if you amend [your affairs] and fear Allah - then indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful." (4:129)


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Abu Loren View Drop Down
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Points: 1646 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Abu Loren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2012 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by nospam001 nospam001 wrote:

I'm sorry for tiptoeing so delicately around the subject, but I really don't want to cause offence. Hopefully there's someone else reading this thread who is already acquainted with these moral questions, and who can point me to an authority that settles the matter using clear and precise logic. I'll then be one step closer to accepting Islam.


As'alaamu Alaikkum

If the reason for you in accepting Islam hangs on this answer then don't accept Islam, you will be accepting Islam for the wrong reasons. Accept it only if you truly love God and you truly believe that there is no god but Allah and Muhammed (pbuh) is His slave and Messenger. Also you must make an oath to yourself that you will pray at the stipulated times, give to charity, fast and go on pilgrimage when you can afford to do so.

Don't play silly games with your salvation.
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