CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES

¹¹I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

¹³The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

¹⁴I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

¹⁵As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

¹⁶And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

¹⁷Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

¹⁸No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

(the words of Jesus)

¹⁹There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.

Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

Experiential wrote:

Mahdi The Seeke wrote:

Experiential wrote:

Mahdi The Seeke wrote:

I challenge you to provide an ethical teaching from the Quran higher than this � �You have heard that it was said, �Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.� 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.. �O ye who believe! stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well- acquainted with all that ye do.� (Surah Al Ma�idah 5:8) �As to the Righteous, they shall drink of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Kafur,- A Fountain where the Devotees of Allah do drink, making it flow in unstinted abundance. They perform (their) vows, and they fear a Day whose evil flies far and wide. And they feed, for the love of Allah, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive,- (Saying),�We feed you for the sake of Allah alone: no reward do we desire from you, nor thanks.� (Surah Al Insan 76:5-9) Qur'an: Surah 90 Al-Balad (The City) Nay, I swear by this city... We verily have created man in an atmosphere... But he hath not attempted the Ascent, Ah, what will convey unto thee what the Ascent is! It is to free a slave, And to feed in the day of hunger, An orphan near of kin, Or some poor wretch in misery. And to be of those who believe and exhort one another to perseverance and exhort one another to pity. Qur'an 2:177 Surah Al- Baqarah (The Cow) It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the Prophets; and giveth his wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God fearing. Quran 002.280 If the debtor is in a difficulty, grant him time Till it is easy for him to repay. But if ye remit it by way of charity, that is best for you if ye only knew. Quran 005.045 We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers Quran 003.092 By no means shall ye attain righteousness unless ye give (freely) of that which ye love; and whatever ye give, of a truth Allah knoweth it well. "As for the orphan, do not oppress him; and as for the beggar, turn him not away." (Qur'an 93:9) Quran "Repel evil with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you there is enmity will be like a warm friend." (41:34) Quran

Yes I recognize the ethical basis to these. They are about charity, justice and mercy and of course I respect that. All religions have an ethical basis to them, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.

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What particularly draws me to Isa is his call to lay down ones life not merely submission or attempting to achieve good standard in areas of justice, charity and mercy. He required these things but more. He requires and displays complete self sacrifice. He even forgave his persecutors and executioners while dying on the cross. And this is the central message of Christianity, God laid his life down for humanity which is the pattern for Christians to follow. To lay their own lives down.

Yes Mohammad had some high ethical sayings and deeds, but at the end of the day he was a man of the sword while Jesus was of peace.

suicide bombers must be your heroes too then.

No. Thats a Muslim thing.

Anyway Im still waiting for your explanation as to why the Quaran refers to non Muslims as swine, donkeys,dogs, beasts and apes ?

Could you provide references to your claim???

Experiential wrote:

Mahdi The Seeke wrote:

Experiential wrote:

Mahdi The Seeke wrote:

I challenge you to provide an ethical teaching from the Quran higher than this � �You have heard that it was said, �Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.� 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.. �O ye who believe! stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well- acquainted with all that ye do.� (Surah Al Ma�idah 5:8) �As to the Righteous, they shall drink of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Kafur,- A Fountain where the Devotees of Allah do drink, making it flow in unstinted abundance. They perform (their) vows, and they fear a Day whose evil flies far and wide. And they feed, for the love of Allah, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive,- (Saying),�We feed you for the sake of Allah alone: no reward do we desire from you, nor thanks.� (Surah Al Insan 76:5-9) Qur'an: Surah 90 Al-Balad (The City) Nay, I swear by this city... We verily have created man in an atmosphere... But he hath not attempted the Ascent, Ah, what will convey unto thee what the Ascent is! It is to free a slave, And to feed in the day of hunger, An orphan near of kin, Or some poor wretch in misery. And to be of those who believe and exhort one another to perseverance and exhort one another to pity. Qur'an 2:177 Surah Al- Baqarah (The Cow) It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the Prophets; and giveth his wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God fearing. Quran 002.280 If the debtor is in a difficulty, grant him time Till it is easy for him to repay. But if ye remit it by way of charity, that is best for you if ye only knew. Quran 005.045 We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers Quran 003.092 By no means shall ye attain righteousness unless ye give (freely) of that which ye love; and whatever ye give, of a truth Allah knoweth it well. "As for the orphan, do not oppress him; and as for the beggar, turn him not away." (Qur'an 93:9) Quran "Repel evil with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you there is enmity will be like a warm friend." (41:34) Quran

Yes I recognize the ethical basis to these. They are about charity, justice and mercy and of course I respect that. All religions have an ethical basis to them, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.

<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p>�</o:p>

What particularly draws me to Isa is his call to lay down ones life not merely submission or attempting to achieve good standard in areas of justice, charity and mercy. He required these things but more. He requires and displays complete self sacrifice. He even forgave his persecutors and executioners while dying on the cross. And this is the central message of Christianity, God laid his life down for humanity which is the pattern for Christians to follow. To lay their own lives down.

Yes Mohammad had some high ethical sayings and deeds, but at the end of the day he was a man of the sword while Jesus was of peace.

suicide bombers must be your heroes too then.

No. Thats a Muslim thing.

Anyway Im still waiting for your explanation as to why the Quaran refers to non Muslims as swine, donkeys,dogs, beasts and apes ?

Experiential,
I bet if you have paid attention to the verses you are talking about, you did not need to ask this question.

The verses are as follows:
5:60 (Y. Ali) Say: "Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah. those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!"
And:
7:166 (Y. Ali) When in their insolence they transgressed (all) prohibitions, We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."

If you notice, it is not addressed to non-Muslims as you tried to claim it did. It directly deals with those who received guidance from God but rejected it transgressed and worshiped evil. So as a punishment God turned them as such. And God will punish them and those like them in the hell fire.
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 30 November 2012 at 5:48pm

The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Experiential wrote:

Mahdi The Seeke wrote:

I challenge you to provide an ethical teaching from the Quran higher than this � �You have heard that it was said, �Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.� 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.. �O ye who believe! stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well- acquainted with all that ye do.� (Surah Al Ma�idah 5:8) �As to the Righteous, they shall drink of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Kafur,- A Fountain where the Devotees of Allah do drink, making it flow in unstinted abundance. They perform (their) vows, and they fear a Day whose evil flies far and wide. And they feed, for the love of Allah, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive,- (Saying),�We feed you for the sake of Allah alone: no reward do we desire from you, nor thanks.� (Surah Al Insan 76:5-9) Qur'an: Surah 90 Al-Balad (The City) Nay, I swear by this city... We verily have created man in an atmosphere... But he hath not attempted the Ascent, Ah, what will convey unto thee what the Ascent is! It is to free a slave, And to feed in the day of hunger, An orphan near of kin, Or some poor wretch in misery. And to be of those who believe and exhort one another to perseverance and exhort one another to pity. Qur'an 2:177 Surah Al- Baqarah (The Cow) It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the Prophets; and giveth his wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God fearing. Quran 002.280 If the debtor is in a difficulty, grant him time Till it is easy for him to repay. But if ye remit it by way of charity, that is best for you if ye only knew. Quran 005.045 We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers Quran 003.092 By no means shall ye attain righteousness unless ye give (freely) of that which ye love; and whatever ye give, of a truth Allah knoweth it well. "As for the orphan, do not oppress him; and as for the beggar, turn him not away." (Qur'an 93:9) Quran "Repel evil with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you there is enmity will be like a warm friend." (41:34) Quran

Yes I recognize the ethical basis to these. They are about charity, justice and mercy and of course I respect that. All religions have an ethical basis to them, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.

<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p>�</o:p>

What particularly draws me to Isa is his call to lay down ones life not merely submission or attempting to achieve good standard in areas of justice, charity and mercy. He required these things but more. He requires and displays complete self sacrifice. He even forgave his persecutors and executioners while dying on the cross. And this is the central message of Christianity, God laid his life down for humanity which is the pattern for Christians to follow. To lay their own lives down.

Yes Mohammad had some high ethical sayings and deeds, but at the end of the day he was a man of the sword while Jesus was of peace.

suicide bombers must be your heroes too then.