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Abrogation? |
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Ron Webb 
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Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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 Posted: 18 September 2008 at 5:45pm |
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If he is truly repentant, yes. That's what forgiveness is all about.
The victim is not helped by punishing the perpetrator. I think you're confusing justice with vengeance. If the victim wants vengeance, then in my opinion he/she is little better than the perpetrator.
The point is that some people are deemed to be beyond hope of rehabilitation. At least if we keep them locked up they can't hurt anyone else. Same goes for the death penalty, although I'm not in favour of it. |
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Gulliver
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Joined: 12 September 2008 Status: Offline Points: 621 |
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Posted: 18 September 2008 at 12:27pm |
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I was having a peek through this thread and came across this on your post Chrysalis, and it made me laugh.
"Since one is explaining to a non-muslim, I dont think going into detailed explanations like 'Hanafi Madhab' etc helps much. Its like, explaining astro-physics to a Marketing student." LOL
I wonder what Jesus or Muhammad would really think of all of this. Not only in Islam - all of them. Do we all need PhDs in 'astro physics' to get to Heaven ? ;-)
Please - I am not in any way meaning to sound disrespectful. But you are right. I'd need umpteen degrees in a variety of disciplines it seems, fore I could even begin to understand. However........ am willing to try and learn.
Could WIMPs be virtual in nature ? lol
If virtual particles can melt away a black hole (ala Stephen Hawking), couldn't they also have momentary mass?
Is Heaven really a place on earth (ala Belinda Carlisle). ?
God bless you all folks :-) |
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Chrysalis
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Joined: 25 November 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2033 |
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Posted: 17 September 2008 at 10:55pm |
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The gates of forgiveness are open 24hrs a day, for as long as you live. No matter how big the crime. So yes, there is a chance at forgiveness before punishment is rendered out by Allah. If a person does not want to go to hell, they just have to ask for forgiveness and do good on earth. Sounds fair to me. As for your idea of 'True Forgiveness' i.e. you're not required to do time at all. . . very nice, theoratically. But unjust and unfair. Should a man, who got away with rape, murder, theft on this earth get away with all his crimes, and be pardoned in the hereafter? On the same platform, as one man who stayed away from rape, theft, and murder - because it was the right thing to do? I dont know, you tell me. What about the victim? Doesnt the victim want justice? We cannot presume how, and why and if Allah will forgive anyone. . . It is up to Him, and He shall deal with everyone justly and accordingly. That is a Muslim's belief. But i guess since you are not one, we cannot expect you to understand that.
What about those that are in life imprisonment? Or those on the death-penalty. . . they are never returning to society, so whats the point in punishing them then? Because it is only fair that they get punished for doing a wrong. . .
The heaven/hell thing deals with 'rewarding behaviour' and 'earning the result of what we have reaped'. And it also helps correct the behaviour of those on earth, because they know they will be held accountable for every action. So it has a multi-pronged effect.
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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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minuteman
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Joined: 25 March 2007 Status: Offline Points: 1642 |
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Posted: 16 September 2008 at 11:03pm |
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Ron, since you do not beleive in God and also in any revealed book, it is difficult to convince you. Still we try. Now I am taking up your argument about various stages in Heavens (paradise). Even though it has already been explained to you.
In our book, The Quran, there is mention of reward (Ajr). Also there is mention of great reward (Ajr an Azeem). So we believe that there are stages and higher stages of achievements in the hereafter.
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Ron Webb
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Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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Posted: 16 September 2008 at 6:03pm |
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Forgiving them after they've done their time is an empty gesture. True forgiveness would happen before they were punished. True forgiveness would not require them to do time at all.
Our prison system is run by our government's "Corrections Division", the theory being that we hope to correct the criminal's behaviour so that he will return to society as a law-abiding citizen. (Ha! That's the theory, anyway.) The heaven/hell thing, by contrast, is supposed to be a final judgement. There can be no pretense of correcting behaviour, no chance to return to society and no opportunity to make amends for misdeeds. After you're dead, you've either earned your heavenly reward or not, and a short stay in hell will not change anything. If you're deserving of heaven afterward, you were deserving of it before.
Yeah, simple. So why can't I get a straight answer? Does believing in the divinity of Christ take you to hell, or not?
I didn't pursue that discussion because I didn't want to offend anyone, but rest assured, there were plenty of Muhammad's contemporaries who would have vehemently disagreed with your "historical fact". |
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Chrysalis
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Joined: 25 November 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2033 |
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Posted: 15 September 2008 at 10:02am |
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So punishing someone for a bad-deed, and forgiving them after they have done thier time is 'schizophrenia'? Talk about a foolish answer.
Isnt that what your courts do? A person, no matter how 'good' and model a citizen, will pay for doing a crime. After they have paid off thier debt to society, and done thier time, they are pardoned, and released. An evil criminial, with a horrendous crime, is likely to suffer all his life . . .(life imprisonment) . . . So your courts are schizophrenic?
Thats the difference b/w Islam and other religions, particularly Christiniaty, just the label of belief is not going to get Muslims into paradise. . .they are told to watch out, and conduct themselves conciousley. And not fool themselves with thier own piety. You can be a 5-time daily prayer, but if you murder somone, you have to pay for it. And if a person gets away with it in this life, Allah will deal with him later. . . thats the beauty of it. There is justice for all . . . Just bcz that person was otherwise a practising muslim, doenst absolve him of his crime. . . he has to pay for it, either in his life - or in the hereafter.
As for an 'elitist' class system! You will get what you earn. You have this life to cash in as many points and upgrade yourself as much as you can. Muslims KNOW beforehand about what they need to do to get into that 'class' , if they choose not to, or prefer a worldly short-term pleasure, then unfortunately they didnt make a wise decision. How is that elitist? God is not going to grant status in heaven on the basis of money, power, class, race or blood ties. There is no such thing as the 'chosen-one' in Islam, you have to earn the status. . . and you can.
If a person despite knowing what he should be doing, and what he can possibly earn, prefers NOT to earn the rewards, and instead focus on the worldly . . . then they dont deserve an 'equal' status with those that work hard on earth to be good ppl. Simple as that.
Huh? The Quran's use is not to foretell whether or not ur Grandma is in heaven or hell. It tells you the ways and means to get to heaven, and warns you of the things that can take you to hell. Simple.
You do your part, and leave the rest to Allah. Rest assured Allah is going to deal with you in the best, and most Just of ways.
Let me elaborate a bit by saying, that Allah will judge everyone very justly, if a person has never had knowledge of, or exposure of Islam - Allah will deal with them accordingly. For example, there were ppl following Abrahamic faiths pre-Quran, who had no knowledge of 'Islam' as it is today, the Companions asked the Prophet this, and he said that thier deeds will be judged accordingly, and the 'good' ppl will go to heaven. There are such ppl today as well, living in places with no knowledge of Islam. For those ppl, verse 2:62 applies. And Allah will not let thier good deeds go to waste.
However, 'rejection' of Islam, and the One True God is a different matter. When a person, despite bieng exposed to the Oneness of God and the nature of Islam , rejects it . . . Vserse 3:85 applies. Hence the verses are talking about 2 different sets of ppl . . .not the same person like your Grandmother. Thus, there is no contradiction in the above verses like you state.
Allah alone knows the heart of your Grandmother, her faith, her knowledge, her intentions and her exposure to the truth. And He will deal with her accordingly. It is grossly unfair of a human, who does not know the above aspects of a deceased person, to comment on thier fate. Which is why we Muslims have been told to desist from making such predictions and assumptions about the deceased.
I agree with MM on the first part, that there is no contradiction in the above verses, like I explained above. About the second part, I honestly did not understand wht MM is trying to say, once I do, I shall give you my opinion.
Yes, interesting but true. The same goes for all the Prophets before Muhammad as well. We have already had a discussion on the merits of Muhammad as a person, and why it was and is to this day, so easy for billions of Muslims to believe in his word and finality as a Prophet. Faith aside, he was an excellent human bieng with no vested interests, except the good of his people. . . a fact that nonmuslims agree with, and is a historical fact.
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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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minuteman
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Joined: 25 March 2007 Status: Offline Points: 1642 |
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Posted: 15 September 2008 at 5:06am |
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Ron, you are an atheist, a disbeliever in God. You have no religion and no religious knowledge. You have no religious book of your own. Your comments are your own. Your Grand maa, you said was a believer (say a christian). She will be well off if she had done good deeds. That is vide verse 2:62.
But your case is different. You are a disbeliever in God. You will have no hope of any kind even if you do good deeds. That is by the verse 2:62 (You have no cover) and also by the verse 3:85 your mission will not be accepted. In order to achieve anything at all, the first step is to believe that there is a God, Creator of all.
If there is no belief then all your deeds are null and void. So the best for you is to believe. Become a Hindu or a christian or a Jew or a Muslim. At present you re benefitting from the two great attributes of Allah, those are
1. The Rabb. (The Creator, cherisher, maintainer of all)
2. The Rehman. ( The merciful for all living bodies)
You have no share in attribute The Raheem and The Maalik. So you are missing a lot of good things.
Please do not go astray because there are grades in Paradise. There are grades here in this world too. You have no cause to complain about the grades.
As there are efforts, grades of good efforts so there are grades of rewards. As there are grades of crimes so there are grades of punishments. I do not know in which world you are living ! You seem to have your own desire as your leader as your God. So you want some kind of laws of your own. I assure you that your case is described in the Quran as one of the highly misled persons who makes his own desire as his guide (God). I cannot find the reference for that.
Keep up your efforts and design your own religion. if you can. When you have doen it then please let us know what you have made (produced). Edited by minuteman - 15 September 2008 at 5:12am |
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Ron Webb
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Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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Posted: 14 September 2008 at 12:01pm |
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Well, that at least is an answer, though a rather foolish one in my opinion. What kind of schizophrenic God would send good people to hell and make them suffer for an arbitrary time, and then transfer them to heaven? What kind of elitist God would maintain a class system in heaven, with a hierarchy of stages and unequal rewards? That's exactly the kind of stuff that creates resentment and strife here on earth. Is there anything in the Quran that supports these notions, or is this something that Muhammad added?
Then what use is the Quran? 2:62 says that someone like my grandmother will "have her reward" in the afterlife. 3:85 says someone like her will be "one of the losers". Minuteman apparently has convinced himself that there is no contradiction betwen those two statements, that one can be a "loser" in heaven and/or be "rewarded" in hell. What do you say?
It's interesting that anyone after Muhammad is automatically labeled "loony", but Muhammad himself is believed without question. |
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Chrysalis wrote: