THE BIBLE SAYS TO WORSHIP JESUS IS IDOLAT

honeto wrote: PattyaMainer wrote: honeto wrote: PattyaMainer wrote: honeto wrote: PattyaMainer wrote: honeto wrote:   Deuteronomy 32:16 They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols. Hasan      "That in the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth..." (Phil. 2:10) It follows then, that it is of the Faith (de Fide) that Jesus Christ is to be worshipped by all men, with the gesture of adoration, which is kneeling before Him in His Sacred Humanity.         Dear Patty, I note that in your quote above its someone other than Jesus that is saying what it is saying: i.e. "Jesus Christ be worshipped."   Here is a quote from the same Bible, and these words suppose to be coming out of the mouth of Jesus, and here it is as if he is speaking, delivering a command, let's read it: John 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. Hasan     Yes, Hasan, it is God who is speaking in the verse above from Deuteronomy.  Hasan, I thought Muslims did not believe in the NT, yet you are quoting a verse from St. John, one of the four Gospels in the NT.  Why would you believe this verse?  But since you did post this one verse from the Gospel of St. John, I'll add a couple more verses so that you can see what Jesus was really stating:   John 4:20-26 (New International Version) 20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."  21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."  25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."  26Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."   God's Peace, Patty   Dear Patty, let me clear out your confusion, I do not believe the present form of what we now know as the Bible to be God's pure word sent down to prophets before the last prophet, Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). The reason I quote from it is to show those who believe in it when engaged in a conversation like this to prove or disprove a claim. Deuteronomy 32:16 was to show you that God does not like the worship of other than God, also it shows that God does not like idols be worshipped. That and many other verses in the Bible, including that of the ten commandments clearly state not erecting idols of God or any living thing for the purpose of worship. I mention that to show Catholics that by making representations of any living thing, praying and bowing down to them is against the teachings of not just the Quran, but the very book they claim to be guiding them!   In response you wrote the folowing:  "That in the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth..." (Phil. 2:10) It follows then, that it is of the Faith (de Fide) that Jesus Christ is to be worshipped by all men, with the gesture of adoration, which is kneeling before Him in His Sacred Humanity."   Now to show you that your quote of worshipping Jesus cannot be true since in the same Bible Jesus is quoted to have said that actually its God (the Father) that to be worshipped. Here is that quote again: John 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.   So my use of these quotes from the Bible is to show you, who believe in it to be true word of God, that it also negate almost every claim you make and prove through it. Hasan     T   I maintain the accuracy and truthfulness of the Holy Bible which was sent to the apostles and disciples from God.  You do not believe it, and that is your right.  Jesus warned of false prophets who would follow him, and warned us to beware of them.    Hasan, we will just have to agree to disagree.  This dialogue is a stalemate.  You are devoted to your faith, and I am just as devoted to mine.   I wish you peace.   Patty   Dear Patty, the purpose of whole this hard work is not to say "I believe this and you believe that and we are not going to agree with each other, and yet keep bringing up issues!" rather to back up our claims upon which we profess to build our faiths. You made a claim, backed it up by a source. The same source should not contradict it, if it does then either: your claim is not true, or your source is inconsistant.  There is no hidden truth about it other than that.   Simple truth of what we discussed above is that you through a Bible quote claimed that Jesus to be worshipped, I through another quote from the same book showed you that it is not to be true, and in fact God, the Father is the only one to be worshipped. Now without taking sides, your claim was proven wrong dear, plain and simple.   If I claim, which I do that only God, whom Bible refers as 'Father' is to be worshipped according to the Quran, and then you happen to find a quote that shows somone else to be worshipped, then you have proved me wrong, that simple.   Dear, first we have to test and prove a claim we make before we put our trust, and everything else into it.   Let us apply that simple rule, what we expect when we sign next credit card sales reciept, or a bank, car or legal document. When we sign it after reading /knowing/ understanding and making sure it does not have a descripency we don't get surpises like we do otherwise, when we don't pay attention and sign without reading or understanding it. Is hereafter of less value, or we jsut don't believe it to be true??   Hasan

PattyaMainer wrote: There is no worship of anyone other than God, Hasan.  The point you cannot understand or believe is the Trinity.  Jesus IS God.  So is the Holy Spirit.  We pray, "Praise the Holy Trinity, UNDIVIDED UNITY, etc., but this is a concept you cannot grasp, it takes a great amount of faith, it is a mystery....

 Why isn't the trinity Logical? (It doesn't make sense).
 How can people believe in the trinity if they don't understand it?
 If we don't need to understand the trinity and we need to just believe, then  why did god give us a brain?

PattyaMainer wrote: and without belief in the Trinity you are confusing the sameness of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.  I cannot explain it to you, obviously.  Perhaps someone with more elequent speech will be more successful.  Jesus is God "The Father and I are ONE."   Kind Regards, Patty

 Claim 1>. Jesus says, " I and the Father are One (John 10:30)."

It is claimed on the basis of this quotation (which is almost always presented without its context) that Jesus was claiming equality with God. The problem with this assertion is that the context has been taken out, either deliberately or out of ignorance.

Beginning at verse 23 of the Gospel of John, chapter 10 we read (in the context of 10:30) about Jesus talking to the Jews. In verse 28, talking about his followers as his sheep, he states: "...Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29)My Father who gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30) I and the Father are One."

The above verses prove only that Jesus and the Father are one in that no man can pluck the sheep out of either's hand. It does not at all state that Jesus is God's equal in everything. In fact the words of Jesus, " My Father, who gave them me is Greater than ALL...," completely negates this claim, otherwise we are left with a contradiction just a sentence apart. All includes everyone even Jesus.

PattyaMainer wrote:   I believe in the Catholic Bible, of course.  Ali, I have studied the Bible and the history of the life of Jesus, the Holy Land, tradition, culture, etc., etc., longer than you havae probably been alive.  You do not believe and YOU take the true meaing of the Bible out of context.  So, you think I need to kow the history of the bible?  This did give me a little chuckle!  I cannot discuss my Bible with you when you have been convinced it is a false book.  What's to discuss?  You don't believe it, and nothing I could present would change your mind.  Yes you believe everything you read in the Qur'an without question.  I could present much evidence and pose many questions as to discrepancies and false statements in your Holy Book, but out of respect for your religion and beliefs I choose not to do so.   Peace, Patty

 So here is challenge to prove any single discrepancie and false statement in Quran.

 Here is little example of corruption in your Bible which you supposed to be Holy.

 

 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:9-20;&version=31;)

The above text reads: "The most reliable early manuscript and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20."

Now my concern to this corruption and 'answer-the-problem-away' statement is that what are those so-called "reliable early manuscript(s)" and who are the "ancient witnesses"?

 If the "gospel of Mark" was indeed Divine and from GOD Almighty, then we wouldn't have this corruption, that they're admitting above, in it.

Further regarding this Gospel, we read the following commentary about Mark 16:9-20:

"Serious doubts exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark.  They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark.  His Gospel probably ended at 16:8, or its original ending has been lost.  (From the NIV Bible Foot Notes, page 1528)"

 The quote "or its original ending has been lost" proves that what we call today "Gospels" were not written by their original authors such as Mark, John, Matthew, etc.It proves that the Gospel had been tampered with by man.

 If John Mark wasn't the one who wrote Mark 16:9-20, then who did? And how can you prove the ownership of the other person?

 

Edited by honeto - 08 December 2008 at 4:40pm