honeto wrote: Dear Patty, I understand your frustration, but I must stick to the topic and to what we are trying to achieve here. The purpose of this forum as I understand is to learn, and to let others know what and how you understand and believe it be. Morals and being good toward God's creation is a universal believe we all must practice as told in the Quran.  Please don't be afraid of questioning Islam, and Quran. If you have a question or comment  please don't hesitate. Just look for appropriate topic or thread, if not found just start a new one. And never think that you will affend anyone, unless you mean to do so. I can of myself cannot decide who will be in paradise and who will be in hell fire, for me that is for God to decide. I only seek His mercy and forgiveness which I can expect if I know and serve Him correctly, which I can only do, if I base my action of serving him through knowledge and truth, which comes only through what I see, hear, learn and know about Him through what He has blessed me with, the capabilities of listening, seeing, thinking, analysing, and making judgements based on true obervations not internal or external fears and reservations.   I do believe in illusions of all being in paradise, as good and evil are not the same according to the Quran, and one of the biggest evil is directing one's worship to someone other than God. There are many others who will not enter paradise according to the Quran. Many don't like to hear that, but that's the truth whether we like it or not. Everything has a consequence. And in Islam, a person correects his conduct seeing the consequence it may bring him later. Hasan

1st. Note how Jesus always cast out demons, cured the sick, and did miracles in His own name.  Also, on several occasions Jesus deliberately said; "I AM".  This would never have been taken lightly by any Jew of Jesus' time.

Think!  Take for example Jesus� words in John 10:30, �I and the Father are one.� When first encountered, this might not seem to be a claim to be God. However, when we look at the Jews� reaction to His statement, �For a good work we stone thee not; replied the Jews, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.� (John 10:33). Now we see an actual claim.  The Jews understood Jesus� statement to be a claim to be God. In the following verses, Jesus never corrects the Jews by saying, �I did not claim to be God.� That indicates Jesus was truly saying He was God by declaring, �I and the Father are one� (John 10:30).

John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, "I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. " Again, in response, the Jews take up stones in an attempt to stone Jesus (John 8:59). Why would the Jews want to stone Jesus if He hadn�t said something they believed to be blasphemous, namely, a claim to be God? John repeatedly tells us of the Lord's connection to "I Am".  See John: 4:26, 8:24, 8:28, 8:58,and 13:19.  The Apostle Paul tells us that Jesus "..is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (Colossians 1:15-17)

John 1:1 says that �the Word was God.� John 1:14 says that �And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us� This clearly indicates that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, "...Be shepherds of the church of God, which He bought with His own blood." Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. Acts 20:28 declares that God purchased the church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

To try and grasp the Trinity, first understand that God the Father the Son and Holy Spirit are Spirit, light, awesomeness, power, justice and love -- and He in no way conforms to a human's understanding.  Jesus told us God is Spirit.  Shine two beams of light on the same spot, and you have the light of one, separate, yet also the same as the others.  An example of Jesus' light and the Father's light as the same is at this true Near Death Experience here

Next, try to grasp Jesus' nature as being both totally human and totally God. To help you with this consider these paradoxes by early church father Gregory of Nazianzus (329-390 A.D.). Gregory used these to argue against Arianism.

"He was baptized as a man -- but He remitted sins as God...He was tempted as man, but he conquered as God...He hungered -- but He fed thousands...He was wearied, but He is the rest of them that are weary and heavy-laden. He was heavy with sleep, but He walked lightly over the sea...He pays tribute, but it is out of a fish; yea He is the king of those who demanded it...He prays, but he hears prayer. He weeps, but He causes tears to cease. He asks where Lazarus was laid, for He was man; but He raises Lazarus, for He was God. He is sold, and very cheap, for it is only for thirty pieces of silver; but He redeems the world, and that at a great price, for the price was His blood. As a sheep he is led to the slaughter, but He is the shepherd of Israel, and now of the whole world also...He is bruised and wounded, but He heals every disease and every infirmity. He is lifted up and nailed to the tree, but by the tree of life He restores us. He dies, but he gives life, and by His death He destroys death."

Cyril of Alexandria (376 - 444 AD) says, �Indeed, the mystery of Christ runs the risk of being disbelieved precisely because it is so incredibly wonderful.  For God was in humanity.  He who was above all creation was in our human condition; the invisible one was made visible in the flesh; he who is from the heavens and from on high was in the likeness of earthly things; the immaterial one could be touched; he who is free in his own nature came in the form of a slave; he who blesses all creation became accursed; he who is all righteousness was numbered among the transgressors; life itself came in the appearance of death.  All this followed because the body, which tasted death, belonged to no other but to him who is the Son by nature,�  [On the Unity of Christ]

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.  Isaiah 7:14  (written: 712 BC (Before Christ)

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Matthew 1:23

For unto us a Child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder: and his name will be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.  Isaiah 9:6 (written: 712 BC (Before Christ)

And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people. Luke 7:16

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

because he had not only broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making Himself equal with God. John 5:18

Jesus said:
I and my Father are one. John 10:30

The Jews answered him [Jesus], saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. John 10:33

When many were about to stone Jesus for blasphemy (John 10:30-39), He said to them that said he blasphemed "because I said, I am the Son of God?" (John 10:36).

You call Me Teacher and Lord; and ye say well; for so I Am. John 13:13
 

But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
And Jesus said, I Am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Mark 14:61-62

The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. Psalm 110:1

he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9

"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?  The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works." ( John 14:10)

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5

And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28

...lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:4

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossians 1:14-17

...Who [Jesus], being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Philippians 2:6

...For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Colossians 2:9

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

...who [Jesus] is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 1 Timothy 6:15

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high. Hebrews 1:2-3

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Hebrews 1:8

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13

And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.  Revelation 19:16

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.  John 8:24

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.  John 8:58

Not everyone who says to me, �Lord, Lord,� will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven Matthew 7:21

And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel (means God Among Us).

Note: "his wings" Isaiah 8:8 ...See the prophecy of the Tzit-Tzit (fringes of His gown) that Jesus fulfilled here

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.  Jeremiah 23:5-6

Once, a paralytic man was presented before Jesus for healing (Luke 5:17-26), and Jesus said, �Man, thy sins are forgiven thee� (Luke 5:20).  And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone? (Luke 5:21).  But Jesus (God in flesh) knew their thoughts and queried,

But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts? Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house. (Luke 5:22-24)

And immediately he rose up before them, and took up that whereon he lay, and departed to his own house, glorifying God

Revelation 19:11-14 - speaking of Yeshua/Jesus leading the Army of Heaven:

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Jehovah shares His glory only with Jesus...

In Isaiah 42:8 Jehovah himself is speaking, and He emphatically declares "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images." Again, in Isaiah 48:11, Jehovah is speaking, and He declares: "For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another."

John 17:5 tells us Jesus said; "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

Of course that is Jesus speaking of being part of the Godhead Himself. Since God will not share His glory. And Jesus tells us He had this glory with Yahweh/Jehovah before creation. What more proof from Jehovah or the lips of Jesus do you want?

The Scriptures bear unmistakable testimony to the creative activity of God's Son, distinguishing Him from among the "things" created, as the Creator and Sustainer of  "all things."

The Book of Colossians:

The entire context of Colossians 1:15-27 is filled with superlatives in its description of the Lord Jesus as the "image of the invisible God, the first begetter [or according to Erasmus ''original bringer forth''] of every creature."

The Apostle Paul lauds the Son of God as Creator of all things (v.16) and describes Him as existing "before all things" and as the one by whom "all things consist" (v.17). This is in perfect harmony with the entire picture Scripture paints of the Eternal Word of God (John 1:1), who was made flesh (John 1:14) and of whom it was written: "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:3). The writer of Hebrews also pointed out that God's Son "[upholds] all things by the word of his power" (Hebrews 1:3) and that He is Deity in all its fullness, even as Paul wrote to the Colossians: "For...in him should all fullness (of God) dwell" (Colossians 1:19)

Reference for above, "Jehovah shares His glory only with Jesus..." -The Kingdom of the Cults (Walter Martin & Ravi Zacharias), page 96

WHAT ABOUT THIS "SON OF MAN" THING?

The expression, �son of man,� was used in the Old Testament by Daniel as the term for the Messiah Who, at His second descent to earth at the end of this age, would come �...with the clouds of heaven� (Daniel 7:13,14).  This same scene was described in more detail by John:

Concomitantly, Jesus� favorite term for Himself was the �Son of Man� (Matthew 8:20, 9:6, 10:23, 12:8,32,40, 13:37,41, 16:27,28, 17:9,12,22, 18:11, 19:28, 20:18,28, 24:27,30,37,39,44, 25:31, 26:2,24,45; John 1:51, 5:27, 6:27,62, 8:28, 9:35, 12:23, 13:31).  Using �Son of Man� really was an expression of humility, an indication of how God actually had been willing to lower Himself to mankind�s level by being born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:18-25).  Now, it generally was accepted by the chief priests and teachers of the law that �Son of Man� meant �Son of God.�

When Jesus was led before the council of the elders of the people (Luke 22:66-71), He made the statement that �...Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.,� they asked, �Are you then the Son of God?� (22:69,70a).  Jesus replied, �Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am. His enemies confirmed that they understood this to be a claim by Jesus to be the Son of God by their response, �And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth. �

Dear Patty,