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Is a working woman to pay for anything in marriage
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abuayisha View Drop Down
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Points: 5105 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abuayisha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 July 2012 at 7:37am
Originally posted by Munnim Munnim wrote:

I can even beat her up, if she is out of control. Those are my rights.  The paths that have been discussed are all problematic and I don't wish to have to beat my wife because rights become a principle.
 

'If A Muslim man is displeased with some bad quality in his wife;, then let him be pleased with another quality which is good. '

The verse you cited in the Quran does not give permission for domestic violence.   Muslims are not to "beat up"  women, children or anyone else.  A Muslim is the one from whose hands and tongue other Muslims are safe.



Edited by abuayisha - 13 July 2012 at 7:38am
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Points: 15 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Munnim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 July 2012 at 10:28am
First of all, I am writing from my phone, which causes typos and at times disorganised messages when they stretch in length. But not more so than anyone can understand each point if they will.
Next: dear Lady. Sounds like you are excluding me from your religion? Can you really not tell that I am Muslim? And you say they (Abuayisha and Chrysalis) have given me many examples from Quran and Hadith but I refuse to acknowledge the truth. If you read my first post, I already acknowledged those same points, so I am not disputing them. I am looking for answers that deal with the issue I have, because it does not reflect the situation I am in. So it is actually you who don't address my question, but cling on to what I say is established knowledge. So all this discussion is without bringing anything new to the table. I have asked for answers specifically on women working, and no one who has had a say, knows it, as they have gone reverse every time. And only thing that stands are passages that contradict each other as both I and them have tried to passify arguments. And you all have got the idea that I would beat up my wife because I didn't like what Islam says. Which is absurd and sign of you not listening. And even disputing that the Quran says it, and Abuayisha translating differently that the most established Quran translators. It is then not me who denies 'our religion'
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As a muslim, they have given you so many examples from the quran and sunnah for your concerns.  But you continue to troll this topic again and again.  Because you are looking for someone to tell you that your way is the best way and you refuse to see the islamic way.  So that is why I was thinking that you are teasing muslims and our beliefs.  Islamically, when so many examples are given to a person, and that person refuses to see the TRUTH especially as a muslim, then we must not entertain them much with their insincere questions. 
I wish the best for you and your wife
Lady
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Nausheen View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Munnim Munnim wrote:

Because puristicly, I can object to her working, because many of her collegues are men.


You can't object to her working based on the fact that her colleagues are men. Unless you yourself work in a male-only environment and never interact with the opposite gender yourself.

- I do work with males only. I dont interact with females. I dont know where you got that from, but even by your definition, I sure can. 
I can decide what the money goes to and have her ask for every dollar.


Lol! No you can't.

You can't ask her for a single dollar. Nor can you tell her how or where to spend it. You only have a say over the money you earn.
 
- I was talking about the money I earn I you say I should be the sole provider with, regardsless of her earnings. Meant to say "ask her to account for every dollar (which she spends of money I provide)

I can even beat her up, if she is out of control.


Yeah, and she can slap a lawsuit on you.. and sue you for damages.

Even in an Islamic State, if the husband steps out of line and decides to beat up his wife, she can take him to court or divorce him.

Its funny how you think Islam gives you the right to beat her up, but you have no clue about the responsibilities Islam puts on you. Classic!
 
- Its funny how you skip to western system when Islam doesnt suit your argument. I cited from the Quran 2 post before this, but will write it here again. Your shouldnt deny the quran.
4:34""And as for those women whose ill-will Asad(4,44) [44] you have reason to fear, admonish them [first]; then leave them alone in bed; then beat them;"

I am asking for the more complex issue. As she/we like to maintain our current lifestyle, even enhance it (by buying a house dobble the cost of current one) then it is beyond what I can provide.


Well, then be a man and talk to her logically. Tell her you can't afford one. Fullstop. She can't make you buy a house double-the-cost on gunpoint. There is nothing in Islam that asks you to go beyond your means.
 
- I tried talking to her logically, as I tried talking to your logically, but I am giving up on your as well.

And even if I propose renting, because I don't wish to commit to paying interest and she objects to that, then what is a boy to do?


Put your foot down. If you can't afford it.. you can't afford it. You need to focus on the issue at hand with her and tell her clearly what the problem is... don't bring in her money and her job into the discussion. If you feel you can't handle it, talk to her parents then.
 
- I will put my foot down. Was looking for a good way of showing the right way to go about it, but since it doesnt work with her, or with you, I will have to say how its going to be.

And as she is asking for more than what she needs and what I can provide and she has means to realize those wishes, is she then still entitled to ask/expect it of me in leu of our setup not completely reflecting the classic Islamic couple referred to in the Quran and the Hadiths?


Yes, she is still entitled to her financial rights from you. Your inability to communicate your financial limits to her should not effect your other financial responsibilities.

What do you think is the ''classic islamic couple referred to in Quran and Hadith''? From what you have told us, you seem to be the one that has a problem with the way things were set out by Quran and Sunnah.
 
I dont have a problem with the things in the Quran and Hadiths, I would prefer to live puristacally, but married a western, educated, working woman who dated and everything before me. One that wants the best of Islam and none of the hard bits. Just like you. I am willing to commit both (not only the burdens), but when only asked to by a cash cow and get nothing in return is a bit hard to bear.

This is why I am asking, not because I am stingy. The paths that have been discussed are all problematic and I don't wish to have to beat my wife because rights become a principle.


Are you for real? Wife-beating is not your right! For someone who is portraying himself as very modern and educated - deep down you have major insecurities.

Before you married your wife, were you thinking that her bank balance would be at your disposal? Were there any confusions about the bread-winner and man-woman responsibilities? You married an independent, working woman... but now that she is displaying the traits you married her for, you have a problem with it.
 
No, I dont know if you are well educated, but you do not know how to deecifre a simple sentence. I dont have any intention of beating my wife. Although I have a right to do so. I proved it to you by the source of our scripture, which you cant deny. And I clearly state that beating is something I have not considered or do consider. But one has to remember the right of the other as well, when starting go extreme on claiming theirs. If will want all you can get with pointing at Islam, you must be ready to deliver what you are said to deliver. Start praying and covering for one. Be a supportive and  understanding wife.
If you go around with an attitude and pledge to live like Sarah Jessica Parker, then dont get started on your islamic rights. Rights come after duties.
 
 
 
Goodness gracious!
Have not read a more confusing post lately.
 
Who said what - do we need to read entire 3 pages of this thread to figure that out?
 
 
Just one comment on this entire tirade - the quranic instructions of 'beating' per se become a man's right only and only if the wife is unchaste.
Is your wife disloyal to you? If not, please try to know the tafsir of the verses you have quoted.
 
Also if anyone accuses anybody on the subject of chastity, he must produce 4 witnesses. Between a husband and wife, they do not need to, however Allah knows if they truthful or not -  so this is a very serious matter.
 


Edited by Nausheen - 11 July 2012 at 2:02am
<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR]
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Chrysalis View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Munnim Munnim wrote:


 
- I was talking about the money I earn I you say I should be the sole provider with, regardsless of her earnings. Meant to say "ask her to account for every dollar (which she spends of money I provide)


So go ahead and do that. Make a budget, keep a financial record... nothing wrong with that.

Quote  
- Its funny how you skip to western system when Islam doesnt suit your argument. I cited from the Quran 2 post before this, but will write it here again. Your shouldnt deny the quran.
4:34""And as for those women whose ill-will Asad(4,44) [44] you have reason to fear, admonish them [first]; then leave them alone in bed; then beat them;"


Nobody is denying the Qur�n.
It would be a good idea to open a tafsir and ask a Scholar for the interpretation. So before you stock up on miswaaks (toothbrush) for a possible beating, do look the reasons up. Normal marital discords in a household do not make grounds for a beating.

Even in the Islamic System, the woman has full right to approach the court and take her husband to court if she finds him harmful. That includes a beating. Nothing in Islam says a woman has to put up with an abusive husband.

Quote   Start praying and covering for one. Be a supportive and  understanding wife.

If you go around with an attitude and pledge to live like Sarah Jessica Parker, then dont get started on your islamic rights. Rights come after duties.


Exactly, rights come after duties... that applies to you too. I heard a scholar say that in a marriage the spouses should focus on carrying out their responsibilities and not look at just gaining their rights. What happens nowadays is, people focus a lot on their rights and not on their responsibilities.

Also, even if she doesn't cover or pray, you still have to do your part. Did you not know what she was like before you married her? If her praying and covering did not effect your decision to marry her, then it should also not effect your financial dynamics.


PS: You have input from male members in this thread too. Also, since we are having this discussion with you - a man - it doesn't make sense to talk about your wife's actions. You do not control your wife's actions, only yours so it would not be very helpful to have a list of things your wife should be doing...



 



Edited by Chrysalis - 10 July 2012 at 10:03pm
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Originally posted by Munnim Munnim wrote:

4:34 (Asad) the MEN SHALL take full care of women with the bounties which God has bestowed more abundantly on former than on the latter, Asad(4,42) [42] and with what they may spend out of their possessions. And the right�eous women are the truly devout ones, who guard the intimacy which God has [ordained to be] guar�ded. Asad(4,43)


Selective much?
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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abuayisha View Drop Down
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daraba - the Arabic word has several meanings and none indicate 'beat her up' - unless of course you would like her to retaliate and beat you up.

Surah 42.41-42: �If any help or defend themselves (ie act in self-defence) after some wrong done to them, they are not held to blame for that. The blame lies only with those who oppress in wrongdoing, and insolently transgress beyond bounds, defying right and justice; there will be a serious penalty for them.�

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) enjoined kind treatment and honoring of one�s wife, and he described the best of people as those who are best to their wives. He said: �The best of you are those who are the best to their wives, and I am the best of you to my wives.� Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 3895; Ibn Maajah, 1977; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) spoke beautiful word concerning kind treatment of one�s wife, stating that when the husband feeds his wife and puts a morsel of food in her mouth, he earns the reward of doing an act of charity. He said, �You never spend anything but you will be rewarded for it, even the morsel of food that you lift to your wife�s mouth.� Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6352

'Could any of you beat his wife as he would beat a slave, and then lie with her in the evening? (Bukhari & Muslim) Our Prophet and Messenger never hit a woman. He (pbuh)is our example and guide. This is not a religion of spousal abuse (beat her up).

The Messenger of Allah send to all mankind on his last address delivered on the ninth of Dhul Hijjah in the valley of Mount Arafat, said (concerning women) after praising, and thanking Allah: ' O people, lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and take these words to those who could not be present here today.'

'O people, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers.'


Edited by abuayisha - 10 July 2012 at 7:47am
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W'aleykumassalam lady. Whatever do you mean? What games? Either way, I am not playing any games. I was looking for answers on an issue which muslims of today face, but got a lesson on women's rights. From women. If I had got something on the obligations of women as well, this wouldn't be as frustrating as it is. Anyway I have debated this other issue which I was dragged into and proven my points on it. I was wrong in putting my concern here though, but couldn't have known that because in the past I have received very good perspective from users of islamicity. But this time I only got defensive and one-sided discussion. So will use my own sense and knowledge to go about this problem, which I have. Until I find a person who knows enough to contribute to what I ask. But would like to hear which part seems like a game to you?
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