CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES

I have read the whole chapter. And it is a massive false prophecy since "I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes." did not happen.

Wrong. The Gospel will be constantly preached to the Jews in the Holy Land until the Second Coming. That's all that means.

I have no problem with dogs, and i agree that the Creator should not consider the creation unclean. The problem i have is Jesus insulting a woman, especially when she comes begging for help in a time of need simply for being non israelite. The Bible was not written by americans so their attitude towards dogs is irrelevant. On the other hand, dogs are one of the most,if not the most despised animals in the Bible. Example

The Syro-Phoenician woman was a Greek speaker and Jesus, speaking back to her in Greek, punned in typical Rabbinic fashion using the diminutive form as Experiential showed you. Jesus is quoting a tongue in cheek proverb on this issue and the woman has so much faith she even interrupts Jesus and finishes the quotation! This whole incident was a lesson in which Jesus taught His disciples a lesson.

It doesn't matter Mahdi if Luke himself wasn't an eyewitness as he got his information from those who were. Besides, in the chain of transmission from Jesus he is only link number 2. Yet you can accept Hadith from 300 years after Muhammad 100 commentators down the line.

Besides, Matthew records the incident as well. ;o)

Experiential, thanks for not answering my questions and acting like a parrot. The God i believe in could not order mass murder of innocent people. So, the Bible must be wrong. And for people to commit massacres and credit it to God is despicable, claiming God gave them the land and ordered the killings. That is preposterous. And since Jesus is depicted displaying the same racist behaviour in the New Testament, and since Jesus is part of the Trinity makes him equally responsible for old Testament massacres, this is mind boggling. If the Bible and christianity is true, Jesus was racist.

Except that the people were NOT innocent. The Amalekites were notorious for their ruthless treatment of people around them, their entire culture was based round terrorism and the other nations had the same problem with them. The Canaanites were not innocents either; and in fact their kings were quisling agents for the Egyptian Empire which ran Canaan. Most Canaanites were in fact exiles and slaves in Egypt who left there with the Israelites during the Exodus; the Israelites then were spearheading a war of liberation, which they didn't carry through properly anyway- Joshua's campaigns were disabling operations never carried through to their logical conclusion and in the end Israel lost the ideological war that followed.

As for Jesus and the Syro-Phoenician woman, you miss on the banter between Jesus and the woman and how it was a lesson for the racist disciples, and ignore that Jesus actually healed the little girl.

PS I wish to correct a common mistake. The Emperor Constantine LEGALISED Christianity. It was the Emperor THEODOSIUS I who made Christianity the State Religion in AD 390 and banned all pagan religions. (Constantine died in 337.)

Mahdi The Seeke wrote: I challenge you to provide an ethical teaching from the Quran higher than this � �You have heard that it was said, �Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.� 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.. �O ye who believe! stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well- acquainted with all that ye do.� (Surah Al Ma�idah 5:8) �As to the Righteous, they shall drink of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Kafur,- A Fountain where the Devotees of Allah do drink, making it flow in unstinted abundance. They perform (their) vows, and they fear a Day whose evil flies far and wide. And they feed, for the love of Allah, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive,- (Saying),�We feed you for the sake of Allah alone: no reward do we desire from you, nor thanks.� (Surah Al Insan 76:5-9) Qur'an: Surah 90   Al-Balad (The City) Nay, I swear by this city... We verily have created man in an atmosphere... But he hath not attempted the Ascent, Ah, what will convey unto thee what the Ascent is! It is to free a slave, And to feed in the day of hunger, An orphan near of kin, Or some poor wretch in misery. And to be of those who believe and exhort one another to perseverance and exhort one another to pity. Qur'an 2:177   Surah Al- Baqarah (The Cow) It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the Prophets; and giveth his wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God fearing. Quran 002.280 If the debtor is in a difficulty, grant him time Till it is easy for him to repay. But if ye remit it by way of charity, that is best for you if ye only knew. Quran 005.045 We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers Quran 003.092 By no means shall ye attain righteousness unless ye give (freely) of that which ye love; and whatever ye give, of a truth Allah knoweth it well. "As for the orphan, do not oppress him; and as for the beggar, turn him not away." (Qur'an 93:9) Quran "Repel evil with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you there is enmity will be like a warm friend." (41:34) Quran

Mahdi Said

And that is why the Bible scholars used 'dog'. Quran holds everybody to the same standards and does not discriminate based on race/tribe/nation.

Are you resorting to blatant lies because you are ashamed of what is written in the Bible?

 

κυνάριον (kynarion, 2952) Meanings dogs Greek-English Concordance: 4

verses Greek (NLG) English (NLT) Matt.15:26 26ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς

εἶπεν, Οὐκ

ἔστιν καλὸν

λαβεῖν τὸν

ἄρτον τῶν

τέκνων καὶ βαλεῖν τοῖς κυναρίοις. 26 Jesus

responded ,

� It isn�t

right to

take food

from the children

and throw

it to the dogs . � Matt.15:27 27ἡ δὲ εἶπεν, Ναί,

κύριε, καὶ

γὰρ τὰ κυνάρια ἐσθίει ἀπὸ

τῶν ψιχίων

τῶν

πιπτόντων

ἀπὸ τῆς

τραπέζης τῶν κυρίων

αὐτῶν. 27 She

replied , �

That�s

true , Lord ,

but even dogs are

allowed to

eat the

scraps that

fall

beneath their

masters'

table . � Mark.7:27 27καὶ ἔλεγεν

αὐτῇ, ̓Άφες

πρῶτον

χορτασθῆναι

τὰ τέκνα. οὐ

γάρ ἐστιν καλὸν

λαβεῖν τὸν

ἄρτον τῶν

τέκνων καὶ

τοῖς κυναρίοις βαλεῖν. 27 Jesus

told her , �

First I

should feed

the

children � my own

family , the

Jews . 

*  It isn�t

right to

take food from the

children

and throw

it to the dogs . � Mark.7:28 28ἡ δὲ ἀπεκρίθη

καὶ λέγει

αὐτῷ, Ναί,

κύριε, καὶ

τὰ κυνάρια ὑποκάτω

τῆς τραπέζης

ἐσθίουσιν

ἀπὸ τῶν

ψιχίων τῶν

παιδίων. 28 She

replied , �

That�s

true , Lord ,

but even

the dogs under the

table are

allowed to

eat the

scraps

from the children�s

plates . �

 

My Reply

 Lets look at it all in context. The purpose of Jesus' withdrawal to Tyre was to secure rest not to minister. Healing as this woman wanted was not done in times of rest but in times of ministry.

The Gospels could have recorded Jesus using the traditional Jewish word  kuon, which carried derogatory connotations of uncleanness. Like scavengers.

However Jesus did not as the word �dog� in Matthew 15:26 in the Greek is κυνάριον kynarion meaning �little dog, or puppy.

 

Did Jesus initially ignore her request by staying silent? Remember that Jesus (as were traditional rabbi's of the day) was fond of using questions, challenges, and puzzles to engage a student in the learning/growing process (e.g. Mt 13.51; 15.34; Mt 16.13; 17.25; 19.17; 20.22; 20.32--esp. 22.41; Mk 3.4; Lk 10.36; Lk 20.17; John 5.6). Silence as a response was used by Rabbi's in teaching and Jesus had used silence as a response in John 8.1-11, to dramatically heighten the event, and may be using it here in this way.

 

Also there was no "NO" in Jesus, only "WAIT". Who knows what Jesus motives were? Was it Jesus teaching her (and us) how to pray through waiting and perseverence?

Was it Jesus making comment on a culture where children were burned to death as a sacrifice to the evening star that she would come asking for her daughter to be healed. Maybe he felt her motives were not good that perhaps she just wanted a whole and pure child so that she would be an acceptable sacrifice to this terrible �god.� Who knows?

Why do you assume that the harsh response of Jesus was completely unmerited when we didn't know a thing about the woman herself and he knew a lot of terrible things about the culture in which she lived?

I believe Jesus is not calling the Canaanite woman a �puppy� to insult her but, rather, to test her faith

As far as we know, there was something hidden in that comment that was special to her. His tone of voice (and appearance of eyes) means so much in discerning favor or contempt. The Canaanite woman was not offended.

 

Notice that the woman herself gives us no indication that she is offended by anything that Jesus says or does. What we do know is that, offended or not, she continues to press her petition to Jesus, and Jesus finally grants her desire and praises her faith.

Considering it was probably at a meal time with little kids hanging around

and pet puppies at their feet I can see the context.

Taken out of context and by ignoring the original language, you accuse these verses of saying that Jesus considered anyone other than Jewish people to be unclean scavengers.

It's clear from a reading of all four Gospels and understanding original language that Jesus would not and did not ignore the needs of non-Jews.

Taking verses out of context is a bad habit you have with the numerous threads you have started. You simply cut and paste loosely connected verses without understanding the contextual basis to them all.

 

You have a problem with this Jew non Jew thing.

The language in this same story in Mark is somewhat milder: that the children must be fed "first" (Mk 7:27) allows for the possibility of a later healing and a window for the coming Gentile mission.

he goes on to feed 4,000 Gentile followers in the very next story. So much for "crumbs." ???

 

God did distinguish the Israelites by setting them apart as his own nation (Lev 20:24-26), yet his reason for doing so was not to play favorites, but to benefit everyone (Gen 18:18, 22:18). The Israelites were intended to be an example to others, so that everyone would hear about God and be saved. When other nations witnessed or heard about Israel's history - that is, their relationship with God and God's actions on their behalf - those nations would hear about God and have reason to believe in him. God performed the miracles in Egypt and during the Exodus for this reason (Ex 9:16, Josh 4:23-24), and they did cause people in other nations to revere God (Josh 2:8-11).

God's plan for revealing himself and extending salvation to the world has always included both Jews and Gentiles. The Old Testament makes it clear that the Jews were set apart as a nation in order to be witnesses to the entire world

 

 

Caringheart wrote: Larry wrote: � �� They are very far away from being a government that exists by the "Will of God," Hi Larry,Regarding this statement I say this... they are not far away from their god.� Yes, they are far away from the true God.If you study the old testament, many of the laws of Rome are descendants of what was taught(by God) in the Jewish scriptures and in their society.� So I think Roman thinking was influenced by the Jewish population.    "the basis of our law, constitution, and democracy comes from Christian teaching."�� Christian teaching which flows from the Judeo teaching.I agree, the declaration of an authorized 'state religion' only corrupts... look at England when it split from the original church because it wanted the church to support the decisions of the king rather than the laws of God.� Having the two tied together is not good, but I believe it is the principles of Judeo-Christian teaching(because they are the true guidance of God), incorporated with the forward thinking of earlier societies, such as the philosophy of the Greeks, that has resulted in the stability of other countries.This is why I still say, " I believe the strength of the west lies precisely in the fact that it is built on a solid Christian foundation, which includes separation of church and state and free will to choose..."Just look at what is happening to western nations as they slip away from those Christian foundations.The second class citizen status comes out of the Islamic teaching.Not so with Christian teaching.� "It is precisely Christianity that teaches equality for all." "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's." Yes, this also comes from the old testament when God, through His prophets, would anoint not only a spiritual leader of the people, but also a king.Hope you are enjoying a Happy Thanksgiving day. [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />CH

Caringheart,

   I agree with some of your points but disagree on others. Your statement that "the basis of our law, constitution and democracy comes from Christian teaching," is not completely correct. The actual word, "demokratia" is Greek for "popular government." Roman law descended from the Greeks almost exclusively. In fact, the Romans persecuted the Christians for centuries before declaring Christianity the "state religion" by Emperor Constantine in the fourth century A.D. Most of the fundamentals of Roman law were settled long before Christianity even existed. I am not saying that Christianity had no impact on Roman law, but it was much less than you desribe and did not come into effect for the most part until Constantine.
   I don't really understand what you mean whewn you say, "Just look at was is happening to western nations as they slip away from those Christian foundations." Could you give me some examples of what you mean by that statement?
   Christianity does not need the help of any human government to give it it's legitimacy, in fact, when religion is mixed with politics, it is religion that loses the most in terms of it's moral authority. I am a Christian and always have been, but I do not want other "Christians" telling me how to live my religion or impose their particular beliefs onto me. I support the complete separation of church and state, period.
   Just look what happened in the early history of the United States when early colonies used Christianity and the Bible as the basis of their laws and social "norms." People were branded as "heretics" and "witches", based on the colonial's interpretation of what the Bible had to say and committed the most heinous executions of these and other people branded as not being "good Christians."
   The Bible has been used (incorrectly) as the source for many of the world's most cruel and inhuman persecutions, such as the Spanish Inquisition, for one example. I think that Jesus knew very well what he was saying when he made the comment, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's."
   But these cruel and inhuman examples do not come from Christianity alone, all religions have been misused at different times to persecute and discriminate against others who are not seen as properly "religious" by the religious authorities at the time.
   The ancient "philosophy of the Greeks" was not based on Christianity, it was actually based on humanism, a belief in the strength of human achievement and human political theories. The Greek emphasis on Christianity did not come until after the firsty century A.D. when Christianity was introduced to the Greek people.
   As I said before, I am a Christian and believe strongly in the teachings of Jesus Christ, but there are many Christians who have a very different interpretations of what Christianity means and how it should be practiced by "true Christians."
   Anyway, just some thoughts of mine. I hope you have a great Thanksgiving too!

Larry

Edited by Larry - 22 November 2012 at 1:18am